Welcome And Guest Introduction

Vipul Bindra 0:04

Welcome to another episode of Studio V Sessions. This is Bindra. I'm a filmmaker out of Orlando. I'm a DP, gaffer, producer, sometimes sound. And this is basically raw, unfiltered conversations with other filmmakers, people in the video and photo industry. And I'm really excited to bring you another episode. And this is obviously season three. So really excited to have a conversation. And I've got Makayla here with me. Welcome.

Makayla Wheeler 0:29

Thanks for having me on. I'm excited.

Vipul Bindra 0:31

Tell tell us a little bit about yourself.

Makayla Wheeler 0:33

Yeah. So I am a freelance cinematographer and documentary director. So I kind of do a little bit of everything between, you know, commercial brand work, documentary, but specifically love lifestyle types, brand work. I'm an underwater cam op and DP as well. So I really enjoy anything around the water. I drone op too on occasion. So I can kind of do land, air and see. But yeah, I would say, like I said, do a little bit of everything, but really enjoy, you know, destination, adventure, lifestyle, sports, uh, impact. So look at that.

Vipul Bindra 1:23

That's amazing. And uh yeah, we'll touch on a lot of those things. But very interesting. First of all, you know, not to go too gender like specific already, but look, let's be real, this is a very male-dominated industry. So I'm really excited to have a voice, you know, and I'm gonna try to have that a few more times a season because people need to hear that this is not just a male industry, right? You can be in here and female and be successful like yourself. So it's it's just important to bring out other voices. Plus, I think you have a very unique and different perspective since you specialize yourself, like you said, yeah, uh, with that water and you know, like you said, now air and other things. So, you know, you're kind of setting yourself apart because what happens with me, for example, like I meet a lot of people, right? Yeah, and it's very easy and it's not like on intention, but when you meet somebody and they're like, Yeah, I'm a DP, and you know, you meet and you forget because it's like I meet like 20 hour days. Yeah, no, but to meet, you know, like immediately you were recognized because you're like, hey, I do this underwater, I've got a you know, underwater cage and things like that, you know, uh a housing, and and I immediately that click because it's like I only know like two other people who do that, right? So it's immediately you're recognizable, you people remember you, plus you're doing something really cool and interesting.

Falling In Love With Water Stories

Vipul Bindra 2:30

So um, so yeah. How'd how'd you get into uh the water full, you know, underwater filmmaking and things like that?

Makayla Wheeler 2:37

Um well, I always really loved the ocean, and it started with a documentary film that I did at 15 um on the Florida Springs that we have here. Um I was really inspired by Planet Earth, and um so that's kind of really where it started. I set out to make a 15-minute dock and um, you know, started with a GoPro and went to, you know, probably 10 different springs. And um that's where I kind of really got hooked at 15, and then it just kind of really grew from there. I did another documentary that was interviewing a bunch of different people on um what is special about the water. It was called Wonder of the Blue and like why it's such a um just special place for so many people. There's something magical about the water, and it was based off a book called Blue Mine by um Dr. Wallace J. Nichols. So that was kind of my start of really, but I've always loved the water, you know, even as a really young little girl. Um, there's videos of me just running in the ocean and stuff.

Vipul Bindra 3:40

So that's pretty cool. So so it was essentially your love of water that got you to make that dock, or was it that you wanted to make a dock and that was like the topic?

Makayla Wheeler 3:48

How did you well I ended up meeting a director, producer um out of Orlando here while I was in high school, and he ended up being like a godsend in my life. He my mom uh called him up and asked him to to mentor me, and he just had the heart of a mentor, and so he gave me gear and taught me the technical aspects, and so well, this was all in high school, and I said, you know, what um like if I want to be a filmmaker, what do I need to do? And at the time he was very against film school, and he was like, if you just want to go like like go make films, if you if that's what you want to do is direct or whatever, then go make films. And so I had always loved the Florida Springs and um and grown up in the springs, and so that was kind of my first project in high school, and that's kind of how um I think I was more excited about the filmmaking, but particularly wanted to shoot the water, and so that project kind of uh you know posed an opportunity to be able to explore both.

Vipul Bindra 4:52

That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, like I said, it's very interesting path, but ultimately, look, you were making a dock at 15, and that's what I tell people. Like, I got a call literally yesterday from someone from someone who's like, hey, you know, I've been following your YouTube channel and give me advice or whatever. And I've my first question was just that. I was like, Do you want to be a better filmmaker or do you want to be a better business person? Because those are two different advice. Very true. Because he was saying, like, oh, can I be on you know, set for free and that'll get me more business? I'm like, no, because that's two different things. But if you do want to be a better filmmaker, you better be out there filming, right? That's the only way to get better because you can sit and watch however many YouTube videos you want, right? It's not gonna make you a better filmmaker. So you were out there 15 making, you know, uh essentially a doc. And I'm sure that that kind of laid the groundwork for you to become, I guess, better in your craft.

Makayla Wheeler 5:39

Yeah, I mean, it was it was great. I really like I feel like for me in my journey, it's always been really helpful to have like really strong um like things that I want to imitate, whether it's films and stuff. So I really wanted to kind of do something akin to planet Earth that it inspired me as a young child. And so um, yeah, the documentary it ended up getting like 164,000 views on YouTube, like back in the day when YouTube kind of like popped off. And so it was, yeah, I would say it then kind of laid the groundwork um to experiment with my first real housing, which was maybe a few years later with the A6500, Sony A6500.

Sony Vs RED And Real Workflows

Vipul Bindra 6:20

Wow, so you started Sony, you're still Sony?

Makayla Wheeler 6:23

Oh yeah, I'm still Sony girl.

Vipul Bindra 6:24

Yeah, that's crazy. That's where most people are, you know, and uh it's so weird. I think it just depends on the environment you're in. Sony is obviously very dominant, which is what I tell people. Um, like a lot of people don't get it. And I did some coverage on FX5, you know, launched a couple weeks ago. And same thing I was telling, like, it's not about that these cameras are better. All cameras are great nowadays. Uh obviously back in the day that was different. But what I'm saying is like nowadays camera doesn't really matter, but if you're getting a call, you're usually getting a call for Sony because that's what most agencies are, you know, is their workflow. Yeah. And so you being in the Sony ecosystem just helps you get gigs. It's as simple as that. It's not that it's better, yeah, it is better for business.

Makayla Wheeler 7:04

Yeah, I would say like it all depends. I I think it depends on like what you want to do. I mean, I know plenty of DPs who are still like, you know, we're shooting on red, I want to shoot on red. Not as much, I don't get it as much with the Alexa's, but I feel like red's still like more that old school. But I personally feel like where the industry is going is definitely in that Sony ecosystem direction where you have these very powerful cameras like the FX5 that are almost like, you know, being able to take on the look of a Venice or something like that, maybe potentially.

Vipul Bindra 7:38

Yeah. And so you've done work on the red as well. You find that you get a lot of requests?

Makayla Wheeler 7:43

I haven't, I've done some work on the red ecosystem for different jobs. Um I get it from time to time. Like I had a job come up, an underwater job, um, through a person I know, and they originally wanted me to shoot underwater stuff on a red, and then I was like, look, like there's a lot of workflow issues like shooting underwater that people maybe don't realize. And so I think something like a Sony is much easier. And then I think when they realize that, like, you know, obviously Sony's better in low light, you know, which definitely helps underwater, like red, you really have to pump it with a lot of light.

Vipul Bindra 8:20

And I do know people that shoot on the reds underwater, but I mean Gemini's great uh for um for low light. I mean, but like you said, it's not competition with Sony, it's like a different league.

Makayla Wheeler 8:31

It is, it's a different um mindset, you know. I think.

Vipul Bindra 8:35

Plus also the the workflow issues again, and and to be honest, like I said, I am camera agnostic. I'll film on whatever. You know, you're paying me camera, you tell if they have a demand. Generally, like I said, there's two types of clients, either they care or they don't care. So if they don't care, I'll just pick whatever's the right for the project. But if they do care, then I'm like, whichever one, you know. If I don't have it, yeah, I'll add the rental cost to the rate, and that's simple as that. But I find like more people, like I said, don't care or they care, at least the requests I'm getting are for either Alexa or Sony. I'm not really getting requests for red anymore.

Makayla Wheeler 9:09

Interesting. That's been opposite.

Vipul Bindra 9:11

But but I think it's also the workflow issues. Like red cameras are great. Like I love the R3D files, but it takes 30 seconds to turn on, you know. Oh, yeah. The files are so large. So a lot of workflows issues, I think, is why agencies don't like working with it typically, unless you know it's a commercial where they can, you know, they can uh Yeah, it's gonna be very controlled.

Makayla Wheeler 9:29

And yeah. Yeah, and that's the thing too, is like like with red, you know, people don't realize like then the storage, and obviously hard drives gotten very expensive with AI.

Vipul Bindra 9:38

Oh my goodness.

Makayla Wheeler 9:39

So then, like, you know, it's like and then the Kodaks, you know, like you have to use red software for some of the Kodaks, and yeah, um, yeah, it's very much a whole ecosystem, you know.

Vipul Bindra 9:51

Exactly. With Nikon acquiring it, I'm really excited about it. Like I said, they they they did have innovation, you know, in the raw format and making it popular and things like that. So I don't want to discount what Red did, but it's essentially they were falling off, right? They were sold as a company for some 80 some million dollars, which is like nothing if you think about that. Should tell you where what the state of Red was when it was bought. But with the Nikon ZR, and I'm sure they have other things in the pipeline. Uh I'm really excited where the future lies because Nikon has the the big pockets, so they could pretend and they never had a cinema, you know, division unlike Sony. So they're they're invested. So you never know. I mean, yeah, what may turn out, but currently I'm not sure as in the demand-wise, it's not there that could change. I know of a bunch of people who would have never bought Red or Nikon now have the ZRs.

Makayla Wheeler 10:39

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra 10:39

So that's pretty cool. Uh so so talk about like if somebody

Underwater Barrier To Entry Explained

Vipul Bindra 10:45

was to want to get into what you're doing, is it like expensive or does it require a lot of skill?

Makayla Wheeler 10:49

I mean, you mean like the what like DPing or the underwater stuff?

Vipul Bindra 10:53

The underwater stuff.

Makayla Wheeler 10:56

I think it depends on what you want to do. I think it's definitely much more like um I don't know if approachable is the right way, but like a barrier to entry is less because you have cameras like the FX3 and you have really great how housings now, like the Seafrog, um, as opposed to like Nauticam or Gate the Gates housings. So I think it's definitely um that is less expensive, but I will say this like depending on what you want to do underwater, it's the skill sets around underwater, not just the cinematography that I think can be a little bit intimidating when it comes to like scuba diving, for example. And there's a lot of uh people that kind of are divers first and then they become cinematographers because they have like in the underwater realm, because they have that background and comfortability and like diving is second nature that then they can just take on the camera. Whereas I think I was a little bit flipped. I was kind of more of a cinematographer and now kind of you know, upping, continuing to up my skill set as a diver, like I would say scuba diving specifically. But if you're just shooting like, you know, lifestyle stuff in the pool or um, you know, there's many different water things you can do, you know, surfing's one subculture, and then boating and all kinds of stuff. So I would say that's kind of more just the auxiliary adjacent skill set that you have to have is something to keep. Do you have to get scuba certified or yeah, I am scuba, and I also got free dive certified too. Look at that.

Vipul Bindra 12:35

So did it take some time, like, or did you have to go to school? Like, uh, how does somebody do that?

Makayla Wheeler 12:40

Like, yeah.

Vipul Bindra 12:41

So both you're talking to somebody, yeah, yeah, yeah. My friend Dalton had to with shot at the Dalton had to take me on a boat. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's like I am not by nature going to that route unless a friend like forces me. So you're talking to somebody who has no clue. Yeah.

Makayla Wheeler 12:55

So tell me, like, yeah, so both certifications, like in free diving and scuba diving, um, usually it's just like a weekend course. So you have like coursework now, a lot of it is online, so you can do your coursework depending on the course online. But usually for like intro courses to like scuba and free dive, they do like coursework, and then you have like like two to five out dives, you know, where you go and and you're under an instructor and it's like a class. So it's very doable, but then you know, you it really is just getting out there, having the time, you know, to just keep diving, keep being in the water. And then, you know, you can go up to like advanced. I'm actually working on my advanced open water and nitrox. I've got like two dives left to complete that with an instructor friend of mine. Um, so you can kind of keep going, you know, but I think what diving instructors have told me is it's not so much like you're, you know, getting this whole vast realm of certifications um past the, you know, initial ones. It's more just going out and diving with people that are good at diving, you know, um, that are experienced that teach you how to be a better diver in the water.

Vipul Bindra 14:06

That makes sense. Is it expensive?

Makayla Wheeler 14:08

Yeah, I would say scuba diving is definitely expensive. Um, you know, between the certifications and then your gear, and then you know, you have to have a dive buddy that you know, you know, and then usually you're going out on a boat. Sometimes not all the time, you know. We have springs and stuff. So yeah, it's definitely like a luxury sport.

Vipul Bindra 14:28

So how do you even go about billing for something like that to a client? Like, do you have to account for I don't know, tanks and you know, whatever the cost would be, I'm guessing, because you can't, or do you would you just say, hey, this is my rate plus costs, and then you just factor in costs later. How do you typically go about invoicing a client or at least going about the proposal so somebody's watching, they can kind of learn from that perspective?

Makayla Wheeler 14:50

Yeah, I mean, I think it's just like a cost like anything else, you know. Um, and I mean, not all of my underwater work is necessarily, you know, diving. Um, I have dove before. So I would say it's just like part of your production cost, you know, that you would um I mean, they would pay for the boat rental, any gear rental you need. If you don't have your own gear, it just depends.

Vipul Bindra 15:14

I mean, regardless, you'd probably be charging for it, right? Even if you owned it, I'm guessing in T.

Makayla Wheeler 15:18

Yeah, depending on the project. But yeah. Um so yeah, I would say it's just like anything else, you know.

Vipul Bindra 15:26

You just factor in the cost and then give a total, or do you prefer to just separate it out? Like, hey, this is my DP rate and then costs. Well, how do you like present the total? Just one number, or do you split it?

Makayla Wheeler 15:41

I would probably I would split it. Split it that way, it's clear.

Vipul Bindra 15:45

Like, hey, this is my rate, this is my cost. Okay, no, that makes sense. Um so what would something like that cost somebody if they wanted to hire like an underwater person? Obviously, give me ranges, uh, because I'm sure there's a varied amount of project, but like somebody wanted to shoot something underwater, I don't know, shipwreck or whatever. Uh what are they looking at, you know, cost-wise?

Makayla Wheeler 16:06

Yeah, I mean, I think, well, I would say like from a day rate perspective, um, you know, I will sometimes quote with or without my year, you know, like I have my own rig, but then, you know, which usually nine times out of ten, I'll be the one, like I'll be working on my stuff, but I still, you know, will say like here's my rate. I would say it depends because sometimes you'll get like, you know, nature documentaries or like more eco documentaries that are gonna have more of like that indie doc budget, and then you'll have commercial. I think probably like I mean for cam op stuff it would be like a thousand to fifteen hundred, maybe, and then for like DP stuff, fifteen to two thousand maybe.

Vipul Bindra 16:52

That's a pretty good range.

Makayla Wheeler 16:54

Um so yeah, and then any equipment like any equipment would just be billed like separately if needed. That makes sense. Like um scuba or whatever.

Housings Lenses Lights And Leak Risks

Vipul Bindra 17:04

But what equipment do you have? You said you use five FX3, at least that's what you own. Is that it?

Makayla Wheeler 17:08

Yeah, so I have the FX3, and then I have a seafrog housing for it. Um, I have a flat port. Well, I have a flat and a dome port, and then um I have one light right now. I'm looking to get two um like underwater light, which definitely is like super helpful. And then um, what else do I have?

Vipul Bindra 17:33

That's a decent one.

Makayla Wheeler 17:34

Like I have my 16 to 35 millimeter.

Vipul Bindra 17:37

So you you stick wider lenses typically, I guess because underwater you want it to be to be wide. That's pretty cool. Good to know, yeah. Yeah. Uh do you prefer, I'm guessing, lenses that don't extend, like uh, or does that matter? The housing is already.

Makayla Wheeler 17:50

Well, the housing, the housing has specific lenses that go with it. So you can't just stick any lens in there. So, like for mine, usually what I shoot on is the 16 to 35. But it like I think it can fit. I have um a zoom ring for the 24 or 12 to 24 millimeter. Okay, but you can't just stick any lens in there. So you can't be like, hey, use my vest bits or my uh and that is a question that like I get from people when they're like, you know, wanting me to come on and cam up or underwater DP or whatever. It's like, you know, what, what can we put this lens on? I'm like, well. Or, you know, uh I feel like they're always wanting to, like, I'm always I get a lot of calls, like, because I have um relationships with some of the rental shops, and I'll like they'll call me and have like a client of theirs panicking because they just need like a Sony FX3 for one shot, and they just like want the camera, and I'm like, well, number one, like I'm not going to give my camera unless I'm at least ACing on it, like just because there's tricks to sealing the camera up and just like all the different little things, you know. So that's definitely interesting.

Vipul Bindra 19:06

Yeah, you wouldn't want just anyone handling it and then not.

Makayla Wheeler 19:08

No, because there's like little tricks, you know, to like making sure it doesn't leak and and all that stuff. But um, that has definitely been an experience that I've run into is like just poor planning on the production company, and then they're like, We just literally need this one pool shot, and like, you know, so it's been interesting.

Vipul Bindra 19:25

Wow, and I'm sure that's a big risk uh when you have your own gear. You don't want to ruin a FX3.

Makayla Wheeler 19:31

No, I I like it's funny. I'm like, I should just get another like FX3 in housing or FX5 in housing because I've gotten a good amount of rental calls, but I will not rent out my rig unless I am like personally present.

Vipul Bindra 19:46

No, that makes sense because you don't want to, you know, ha have your gear be ruined. No, especially when you're dealing with uh risky stuff like water or salt water, which is even worse. Exactly. Yeah.

Makayla Wheeler 19:55

So that's kind of where I stand with that. But in the future, I'm like, well, maybe like I could just buy uh extra housing and you know it'd be a good little rental.

Vipul Bindra 20:05

Is housing expensive? How much is the housing?

Makayla Wheeler 20:07

So the seafrogs are actually there's kind of a little backstory with the seafrogs. Um they I think this is like you know, a little bit of gossip, but they split off from Naughty Cam a while back. And so they were kind of under a do not compete for a while, I think. I don't know exactly the details, but um basically they're at a much cheaper price point than like Naughty Cam. And now they used to just make plastic housings, but now they're actually making aluminum ones, which are really, really nice. Um, so those are definitely more expensive. The plastic ones, which are great, um are definitely very affordable. Yeah. You know?

Vipul Bindra 20:51

So it's just probably some acrylic and o-ring seals, right? Or whatever. But is there a higher chance that it leaks? I'm guessing, because it's uh plastic.

Makayla Wheeler 21:02

Or not in a I don't think necessarily. I think um part of it is a depth thing, so they can only go to a certain I think mine's at like 130 feet. I've never taken it down. I've personally never gone that deep myself. Um but the aluminums I think are just a little more durable, probably, and um maybe can go a little deeper with pressure and stuff.

Vipul Bindra 21:25

Got it, yeah. So and it depends on, like you said, the project that you're doing, yeah.

Makayla Wheeler 21:30

What are you what are you shooting? You know, are you shooting surfing stuff? Do you want to dive with it? Like what are you doing?

Vipul Bindra 21:35

Plus also I'm sure uh action cams are big, what what you're doing. Too, you know, sha uh too bad I think GoPro is gonna go out of business. But uh but you know, there's I mean, there's other options, GI and other stuff.

Makayla Wheeler 21:46

But I'm saying I'm sure you're using a lot of those cameras too, right? 'Cause they can I don't really No I don't really shoot a lot with the GoPro now or the Osmo or anything like that.

Vipul Bindra 21:57

So you don't take them like on a surfboard or whatever? Stick them. That's not your thing.

Makayla Wheeler 22:02

I've kind of gotten away from that a bit. Okay. Those like POV shots are, you know.

Vipul Bindra 22:06

Because I will think like you would really like that or the 360 cameras, because then you're like, oh, I can reframe after. Yeah. But I guess you're trying to do that higher end water stuff.

Makayla Wheeler 22:15

I yeah, I I kind of like I like having you know depth of field and just more that like you know cinematic look, I guess, you know, than like the very flat kind of action cam look, personally, is what I prefer.

Vipul Bindra 22:30

Yeah, because the action I mean they're getting better. I was really excited. I went to NAB and I saw that mission one uh ILS from GoPro, and I was like, what? Micro for a third on an action cam? This looks good. And I know they don't want to call it action cam, but seems like it didn't work because last I read, and obviously these are just articles, so nothing's final yet. Um, but it didn't look good for GoPro as a company. Like they were losing money, they have very low cash.

Makayla Wheeler 22:56

They've been struggling a little bit with that.

Vipul Bindra 22:58

Especially I think DJI and Insta360 came and they just took over that market that they were they were dominant in. And and it's crazy, I've got two that are sitting, I can't get rid of them because nobody wants GoPros.

Makayla Wheeler 23:09

Really? Yeah, I think I would get an Osmo myself. Yeah, that's what I have.

Vipul Bindra 23:13

So we have like three, four Osmo 5 Pros, Osmo 360, and then you know, combined with our DJI drones, I just feel like they have at least for me, DJI, and I love shooting on the Ron in 4D, so I feel like it's just kind of overtaken. So it's like doesn't make sense to go GoPro. Like I got a FPV pilot recently and he wanted to shoot GoPro, and I was like, bro, please use an Osmo. Not that nothing against GoPros, they're great. It's just I was like, if the entire project is either S-Log 3 or D-log, then I don't want to have this one random camera that's using um, you know, its own log format and stuff like that. And it's just more work in post when we don't need to, when we have cameras like Osmo Pocket and you know, not uh the uh Osmo Action 5 and 6 and stuff like that. So it's just you know, nature of I guess what's happening to that company, but they did kind of pave the way for this kind of stuff because you know I can't I can't remember before GoPro even hearing about like I don't know, skateboarding, surfing, all this content just which just came out of nowhere when they you know they came out so yeah, yeah, yeah. Sad, but you know, it is I guess nature of how this industry is you either innovate or you get left behind.

Makayla Wheeler 24:22

Yeah, no, totally.

Vipul Bindra 24:23

Yeah, which

Random Networking That Turns Into Gigs

Vipul Bindra 24:24

talk about that. So the way we met was so random. Uh my buddy Fernando, who's been on the podcast, reached out and he wanted me to come uh help him on this amazing project. I love Give Kids the World Village, which shout out it was on a Mr. Beast video of all things recently. So I'm like, that place is getting you know recognition. Yeah, he partnered on some video where Give Kids the World, like they told at the end, uh you know, they feel Phil Vicious and then they were like donate to this place. And I was like, incredible, hey, I love that place. So it's so crazy. I I volunteered that place, you know, when I was in the Disney College program back in the day. So it was really neat to get that call from Fernando. He's like, hey, I'm doing a real uh video for them. Would you like to come? And you know, and I was like, absolutely. So that was kind of one of those things because uh, you know, I make obviously majority of my money when it's my clients, right? Yeah, and and I don't mind helping friends because you know, sure it's money, but it's not like big money. Um, but like I said, because it was good because it's the world village, it was Fernando, I showed up, and that's where we met because he had hired you. I think you were doing BTS, right? If I'm not mistaken. Yeah, and I was at that point planning a car commercial. Um, so I asked you, I was like, hey, if you're free, you want to come? And then you showed up. And uh, what was your experience with that? Because it was random, right? We just met, I don't think it was that far out to you. It was within a week or something.

Makayla Wheeler 25:38

Yeah, it was pretty close.

Vipul Bindra 25:39

Yeah, and that's where I met Matt and Matt and have collaborated so much since that. Uh, I don't know if you remember, Matt was with us too that day.

Makayla Wheeler 25:45

Um, what was he doing?

Vipul Bindra 25:47

He was supposed to be gripping, and then he ended up being Cam op.

Makayla Wheeler 25:52

Okay, oh man. Oh, I think I know who you're talking about.

Vipul Bindra 25:55

Yeah, so and and it's been a while, so I told him.

Makayla Wheeler 25:59

There you go. That's the guy. I know who's gonna be a good thing.

Vipul Bindra 26:01

Amazing energy. But but that's but what's crazy happen, and this is what I'm saying, this is how random it is, just go out and network. Yeah, because I and Matt and I have collaborated so much since then, and I wouldn't have met him had I not shown up. And you know, it's just like one of those things. You two are so memorable because uh, you know, that then you end up like going, hey, yeah, plus he was doing he does Ronan 4D, which I love that camera. So he's like my go-to operator for the for the 8K Ronin 4D. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So point is it wouldn't have happened for me going to just random project where let me be real, like I said, I wasn't the director, I wasn't the producer, I did DP, I hadn't have any important role. Sure, it was shot on all my gear, but you know, gear is just gear. Um, you know, I was just a gaffer on that project. And to be real, we were moving so fast we didn't have time to set up lights and stuff. So I didn't really get to do that much gaffer.

Makayla Wheeler 26:46

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Vipul Bindra 26:47

So I was there for a role and essentially didn't even need he didn't even need me for that role, but I loved um, you know, that I was able to meet you and Matt there. And obviously I knew the rest of Gook and Fernando. I collaborate with them a lot. But point is so anyway, we meet, and then randomly a week later, you and Matt are shooting with me for that car commercial. Please tell me about it because I know I was all over the place uh because I was directing. Yeah. Um, I don't know, how was your experience on that?

Makayla Wheeler 27:13

I mean, it was cool. It was definitely a lot of people to wrangle. It was chaotic.

Vipul Bindra 27:18

Yeah, because it was 45 minutes of good light, and that's all you had.

Makayla Wheeler 27:21

Yeah, which I totally understand because that is my favorite time of day to shoot. I love golden light. Um but yeah, I mean, I think it was it was, I think it seemed like a lot for you to try direct to direct and produce it. So I think it was definitely like just sending people out with cameras and seeing what they could get, you know, in that amount of time. And then obviously, you know, you were trying to deal with the client too and make sure their vision was, you know, upheld.

Vipul Bindra 27:50

Yeah, in the 45 minutes I had.

Makayla Wheeler 27:53

Yeah, but um had you done anything like that before?

Vipul Bindra 27:56

A car commercial?

Makayla Wheeler 27:59

I don't know if I've done any like car, yeah. I don't know if I've done any like car stuff. Um so no, that's your first one. Yeah, that was my first kind of automotive sort of vibe.

Vipul Bindra 28:10

No, and I learned from it. See, the thing is that the clients did a long time of mine. And look, they're the only manufacturer in Central Florida. So if you want to work with them, they're the people. So I'm glad they are my clients because I love doing automotive stuff. And uh, like I said, that one we had limited budget, limited time, because I had literally a studio day, which was the day after, yeah, and then the that morning. And the th the crazy thing was we only had 45 minutes of good light. Yeah, Orlando, you know, and and point is, and we had to get FPV ground shots, you know, everything in that 45 minutes, uh, which is why I was so glad I was able to to bring out these amazing, awesome people like you. Yeah, but I did learn from it because we got to do a second one with a much, much larger budget. Um, so we did that one, what, October, November, something like that. And then this one was in February, and I learned my lesson. So instead of bringing a huge crew out, we brought a camera car out. So we planned everything. So it's two of the three days. So very similar concept, what we did, which was a studio and then a an um uh driving like uh roller day. But and same issues, we only had an hour or two to do it. But I was smart enough that instead of us being on the ground, I got a camera car. So it's really neat to have that 360 view.

Makayla Wheeler 29:20

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra 29:20

So we put a Ronin 4D and uh plus the the Vespid 2 shout out again to Matt and uh Ricky who helped me with that. But instead of having like a 20% crew, what I'm saying is this the three of us in a car with a mic whose arm it was driving or or managing the camera car. We were able to essentially do the whole thing. And now we're able to reframe while we're driving, because you know, the arm goes 360. So you know, and this is kind of like the thing, you learn. Yeah, and uh and what we achieved is amazing. That that product was you know on Joe Rogan and stuff like that. So we went far places, the second one I did. But I'm saying that wouldn't have happened had I not learned what is the more effective thing to do. Now I know, like, sure, you know, it's great to have great people, but unless you have a plan, it doesn't go anywhere. And like I said, having that plan plus being able to reframe while we're driving, middle of highway, you can't do that if you're on the ground. Yeah, you know, so resetting was a much faster thing, and it went incredible. But I love the product we did the first time. I don't know if you ever shot, saw that a final act.

Makayla Wheeler 30:16

I think you sent it to me. I saw it for sure.

Vipul Bindra 30:18

Yeah, it came out incredible. Yeah.

Makayla Wheeler 30:20

Well, and I think the other thing that was notable is just, you know, and this is probably why there aren't like a ton of car commercials, I feel like, shot in Florida. It's like we don't really have those like windy hilly roads, right? You know? Um, so I think that was kind of a wild card that you were looking for probably in your locations and scouting, right? Is something that would even be.

Vipul Bindra 30:44

We found that one windy road where we were, right?

Makayla Wheeler 30:46

Yeah, that's kind of like on the backbone of Florida. I feel like Claremont's like the backbone of Florida. And um, you know, you get like a couple little hills and stuff if you're lucky, but um And then traffic and then Florida rain and muggy weather.

Vipul Bindra 31:00

It's but you know, that's the challenge. But here's the thing look, this client is amazing, their cars are obviously incredible, that's why they're everywhere. But the thing is, uh, you know, even though their cars are expensive, um, you know, they don't sell that many as in you know, their boutique manufacturer. Yeah, so they can't have huge budgets, which they are upping their budgets with me, you know, slowly growing. Yeah, I'm happy with that. But point is with that extremely limited budget, and we had to do stills in that is is it's kind of crazy. Uh, but and like I said, limitation of Florida. Because in an ideal world, that ship the car to Colorado or Utah or something, and that'd be a whole different experience. Because like you said, the background matches, but yeah, this is why, and I'm saying that was great what we did. We found, like you said, we in the scout that windy road, and I think it worked out great. But in the second version, that's why we had to start from pre-pro thinking what we can do. So instead of trying to replicate Colorado or Utah, which we don't have, we went the route of let's use what we have. So we ended up using uh the bridge that we have in Sanford. We ended up using, I don't know if you had a chance to watch that. I'd love to show you. I haven't seen the new one. It came out incredible, and and then uh city shots. So we're like, let's lean into city because who's driving these half a million dollar cars?

Makayla Wheeler 32:09

Yeah, it's not gonna be people out in the country per se.

Vipul Bindra 32:12

But and then, you know, so it was a mix between three, four different environments instead of just one environment, and I think that kind of made it stand out and look so incredible while still being in Florida. So you know, leaning into what we have instead of trying to replicate what we don't have. Exactly. Yeah, no, I think I met Landon, uh, who's a YouTuber, you know, a really great guy at NAB same same thing we're talking about. You know, he does a lot of automotive stuff. And same thing, I was like, we don't have what you have. I mean, if it's Utah, hire him and you know, do it. But point is where we are, we have limited location, and I'm about to do another project for them in a couple months. Same thing. I'm like, what can we even do that we haven't done before? You know, because it's like limited budget.

Makayla Wheeler 32:53

What about something like with the coast, you know?

Vipul Bindra 32:55

That'd be nice. If we can ship it, the problem is with these cars, like I said, they're expensive. They're not built, they don't have like a demo car. No, no, they're they're they're built to drive wherever. But remember, it's a customer's car. So if you have uh they built a car, generally it's a car that somebody designed and paid for. So, you know, it's one thing to drive a couple of miles, but to take their car and drive, you know, I don't know, hundreds of miles. So it we'd have to ship it.

Makayla Wheeler 33:18

You could be over on our coast in like less than an hour.

Vipul Bindra 33:20

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It'd have to be shipped there. So we'd have to bring in a trailer, so that's just cost and time. But you're right, I would love to do something um in your area and your neck of the woods. Because like I said, at least it'll be something. Uh, and just give it a different, you know, environment than what I've been doing. But it's pretty cool. I'm just glad that you know they break the monotony of monotony of uh, you know, like trying to do just corporate commercially stuff that I normally do. And it's just fun. So I'm glad you were able to be part of it and do something different. Very different than underwater stuff, right?

Makayla Wheeler 33:47

Yeah. Well, it's funny, you know. I like I'm not just the underwater girl. Like that is definitely like one of my skill sets, you know, but uh it's not like everything I do, you know. It's so what else do you do?

Vipul Bindra 34:01

Tell us.

Impact Documentaries And Long Projects

Makayla Wheeler 34:03

Yeah, I mean, I think um like I said, I do a wide range of work. My passion, like equally like I obviously love shooting around the water, but I would say, you know, I'm most passionate about telling like human center, like human-first storytelling. And so, you know, whether that's working with a nonprofit or it's a brand, um, you know, I worked on a three-year documentary project from like 2021 to no 2020 all the way to like 2024 that was about the first double lung transplant to attempt to paddle 80 miles from the Bahamas to Florida. And it was for a client out of Palm Beach. And um, it was really a dream come true project for me because not only did I, you know, obviously get to be in the water, but like I was telling this really impactful, like incredible story of this guy who like nearly died. Like he had a miraculous story. And um, to be able to kind of combine like a really strong story like that, and then also, you know, be able to tell it to this like epic, you know, backdrop of this ocean adventure was really um probably one of the most impactful experiences I've you know had in my career thus far.

Vipul Bindra 35:27

That's incredible, and that's what I love about doing dog shoots. Look how much I love making the money in the corporate and commercial world, like it and it's fun too, but I'm saying the impact some of these documentary stories you can make with that, you know, it's like it's it's it transcends just camera work and you know filmmaking. So I really like when you can combine, like you said, a great story with your skill set and then feel proud of what you did, you know? Yeah.

Makayla Wheeler 35:50

So did that go places that documentary or yeah, it was um it was awesome because you know, obviously the client that I worked with, they had their budget. It ended up kind of ballooning up into a much bigger project than we initially first um, you know, thought it would be.

Vipul Bindra 36:08

So they funded it, like you didn't have to fund it, yeah.

Makayla Wheeler 36:10

No, they funded it, and then we also um raised like uh an additional $27,000 on Kickstarter, which was really cool. And then um some other people pitched in. So it it ended up being a really, really awesome project. But yeah, we ended up doing like three um premieres, like one in in North Carolina and then one in my hometown and one down in Jupiter. And um it has like we we that was like a whole interesting actual um rabbit trail of just figuring out the distribution path for it because it was kind of an interesting length. It was like 45 minutes, so it wasn't really a feature, it wasn't really like a short film. So we ended up, we kind of talked to some distribution and then end up, you know, between me and Travis, the executive director, felt like YouTube would be the best path for their goals. They really just wanted to have this like incredible hallmark piece, you know, for their foundation. So it has like I think almost 50,000 views on YouTube, and then it's streaming in select hospitals. We had like this um connection reach out to us, and they wanted to put it in like um their hospital network around the country. So that was really cool. Um so yeah, it was awesome. It was called Double or Nothing.

Vipul Bindra 37:26

Wow, that's incredible. So Doc seems like your passion that you want to do, you know.

Makayla Wheeler 37:30

I mean, I like Doc. Yeah, I I definitely, you know, like shorter, like branded, story-driven like type work too. That's kind of the hybrid of, you know, commercial and documentary. But again, I I really do enjoy like story-driven stuff. And again, I mean, I do commercial stuff, I do it all, but um yeah, I really like being able to be a part of projects and tell stories, you know, if I'm directing that can like move people like in a really deep way, you know. So that's kind of the stuff that really like, you know, beyond making a living and beyond the money and all the things and the gear and the this and the you know, I'm a filmmaker. That's really like my heart, you know.

Vipul Bindra 38:14

Yeah, you just want to tell stories, and this just happens to be the art form you chose to tell those stories. That's incredible. No, and that's great, you know, that gives you a path, you know. I feel like that then you that is you're not chasing gas, you know, like gear acquisition syndrome, like a lot of filmmakers, and you know, stuff like that. You're just like, hey, I want to tell a great story, and these are just tools and and you know, art form that I can tell it through, which is

Freelance Or Production Company Decision

Vipul Bindra 38:35

incredible. Yeah, uh, so you do this full-time though, right? Yes. So how do you manage that? Because I find, and which is the whole reason I started this YouTube channel, yeah, is because look, let's be real, there are a lot of incredible filmmakers like you, but then they're stuck, you know, having to have a job just to be able to sustain the art form because starving artists is a real thing, and I would just want to change that. If I can help even one person kind of, you know, make this a full-time thing that they want it to be, then then sure. Yeah. And and you know, what I find at least is most great filmmakers are not good business people. And and hence why they can never be successful. And and we can change that because business is something you can learn. Yeah. Um, so so talk to me about that. When were you able to make this full-time and what it takes like to be still be able to do the story-driven-driven content that you want to do while still being able to afford your bills or whatever, you know, right? The the lifestyle that you want.

Makayla Wheeler 39:27

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra 39:27

How are you managing that, or what would you say to someone who's kind of, you know, struggling with that right now?

Makayla Wheeler 39:32

Yeah, no, I I think it's definitely a real thing. Um, so for me, I started my production company while I was in high school. My parents were very supportive. Um, I started MGW productions. Um, and then I would say like 1920, I um ended up going full-time with it. I kind of got on a retainer position with my church at the time. And so that was kind of what helped me like transition full-time into the So you never had another job, did you?

Vipul Bindra 40:05

Did you have to go like get it?

Makayla Wheeler 40:07

So you've no, I mean, I I feel like I've done like kayak tours or like different fun things on the side, like little side gigs, but I've not I'm trying to think. I'm drawing a blank.

Vipul Bindra 40:19

I mean, that's a good thing though, because most people have had to, you know. So you seem like you've been kinda full-time machine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Makayla Wheeler 40:25

I've definitely been like kind of full-time, like um like I said, I've had like little, you know, side kind of avenues, you know, like I did kayak tours for a while. I worked at a plant store like one or two days a week for like a year or two, which was really fun. And that mainly just kind of was like helpful to have that rhythm, you know, every week and go do something like, you know. Um but yeah, so I did that, you know, I worked on this documentary project, and I think that was helpful because that was kind of more of a long-term project that I could really get my teeth into and feel like I'm working with a team, and you know, it was more of a long-term project and not just kind of like bouncing between different things. And then I would say, you know, in the past couple years I started sensing a little bit of a shift in myself, and like I was obviously working directly with a lot of local clients and stuff, but then I was starting to get like bigger clients, like work with Hurley and um just some other things. And then, you know, the industry was kind of changing, and I was like, man, like I don't I don't know if I always want to be like so centered on running a production company. And and it was actually a friend of a friend who was a mentor to me last year that kind of helped me see, and I think this is really important for like other filmmakers, is that there really are kind of two paths a little bit, like in one sense, and they are different. Like you can go the production company route where you're working directly with clients, and I think that is its own skill set, and I think it's good to do it with you know, ideally with some sort of business partner, because that's a lot for one pair person to manage, especially like on the creative and business side, or you know, you can go the more freelance route where you're marketing yourself as. Like for me, it was like, am I MGW Productions or am I marketing myself as Makayla Wheeler, cinematographer and director? And ultimately that's kind of where I felt like I wanted to go last year. And so I re-updated my branding and and kind of made that pivot into you know, networking with other people in production as opposed to like always trying to network like with more clients, I guess.

Vipul Bindra 42:39

No, that totally makes sense. That is the struggle, and I and I do agree in some terms, like specializing helps. So, for example, people I've had on this podcast, my friend David Marfield, you know, shout out to him. He's he's so strict about like advertising, at least, whether he does both or not, advertising himself as a DP, and that helps because you know when you're marketing, I'm a freelance DP, then people call you for that. And just like our other friend Adam Mor uh Adam Kalinowski, who's like our advertising himself as a production company, you know, even though he's a DP too. Yeah. So it's like, you know, what I'm saying is having good marketing helps. So like that has been my struggle because I am both, right? I'm a production company and a DP. And that can be getting really hard because to manage um, you know, uh running a whole company, which you know is a lot, and I try to do it at a scale that's larger than most people do, and then on top of that, trying to do DP gigs and freelance work, it does get a lot. And I totally get how most people can manage that. And even if you can, how do you market two different things?

Makayla Wheeler 43:38

Well, and then you know, you're seen as competition, you know? True. That's that's the thing that I see. Like, it's like, well, if you have your own production company, like you know, it's kind of competition a little bit, you know.

Vipul Bindra 43:52

I mean, yeah, I mean that is one way and to look at it, and you're right in some way. Uh at least what I've been trying to change is mindset. So talk about like the guy. I just talked about Adam Kalnowski. He owns uh Adam K Studios. He and I've had built this great partnership, and that's what I I wish people see it as. Yeah. Because look, he has his production company, I have my own production company, and we're both also freelance available. So I've been able to hire him, he's been able to hire me. And when we are in each other's sets, we're wearing each other's shirts. You know, we're not advertising our and that helps because you know, we get each other's resources, as in like he has access to this multi-million dollar worth of equipment that he doesn't have to invest in, versus he can't advertise his company having it. So I did this incredible project with him recently recently, like a commercial in the medical field. And it was incredible because look, I as a as a freelancer would have lost out on that project because my company obviously didn't have that connection and get that project. But now through him, I was able to be part of that project. Sure, I didn't make that much money, but you know, it was also 100% profitable. I didn't have to deal with clients, I didn't have to deal with it, I would show up, work the day, and I left, right? And and and so what I'm saying is there's pros and cons to both, but it does help if you can sit and decide what you want to do and then I guess focus on it. I think that that is uh definitely a path, unless you can do kind of what I've been trying to do, like I said, is partnerships, you know, build relationships where when I am freelancing, I am helping my friends' production companies and giving them these massive resources for essentially, you know, low cost to nothing. And so they win and I win and I get to be part of cool projects that otherwise I would have missed out on, you know?

Makayla Wheeler 45:27

Yeah. Well, I think for me, you know, uh the my kind of thought process was like I just didn't want to always be I think dealing well, it was it was it was multifaceted. I think a lot of working directly with clients, they expect you to be everything, like more of a mark like more of an agency where you know, I was seeing like you create these great videos, but then they don't know what to do with them. Like they so and it's like I'm not gonna be your like, you know, I just can't be everything, you know. I am a production company, and then two, you know, you get these companies that are like, well, we want you to pitch us your idea. I'm like, listen, I don't work for your company, okay? I'm not your marketing person. You should be an agency. What you need, and then I'm here to help you creatively execute that. And that's where I would get like super frustrated. And so um I just didn't want to be doing all that because you know, I kind of feel like I'm a creative executor at heart. And so I just was like, you know, I want to kind of I it just got too much for one person to do to wear too many different hats.

Vipul Bindra 46:41

No, I totally get you. Like I said, somebody who does it by himself, it is a lot of work.

Makayla Wheeler 46:44

And I see a lot of people that have business partners, yeah, you know, in production companies.

Vipul Bindra 46:49

And I don't know about that. So uh I'm not gonna start on that, but honestly, uh, you know, and I I wouldn't want that, uh, which is why I haven't started the marketing arm, because that's my uh something I've noticed too, because clients, well, there's tiers of clients, but there are especially, I'm saying the lower budget clients they expect you to handle ideation and distribution as well, which is more of an agency thing, not a production company thing. So I have always thought about starting a marketing company, but same thing, I am too busy. I'm running, you know, a production company, now I'm running a software company. So between those, I don't have time, and I'm a freelancer. So I I don't have time to run a marketing company, which is where talk about business. I would love to one day get a business partner who wants to run a marketing company. That'd be the only way, because Bindra has the clientele. It's just I don't want to run a marketing company, and that can be a struggle. Where currently I'm like, look, we can take it from I, you know, your idea and finish it. And and but somebody's got to handle distribution, somebody's got to handle the initial ideation, uh, which is not gonna be me. And then it's like, oh, they'll go to someone else who'll be like, sure, we'll do it. The issue, what happens I find with marketing companies is they'll take their budget, and I'm making a number up, but let's say they're like, oh, sure, 100k for this project, and then they'll give 10k to a production company and keep 90k of it, and then the production sucks. So client goes, why did it not look great and all this because marketing companies keeping the majority of it. So it'd be really nice to have a marketing arm where we're not, you know, being greedy like that and be able to actually give production a decent budget. But like I said, that yeah, but I'm also very anti-business uh partners because I see all day. That's the advantage of being out there and meeting so many people and hearing horror stories. So, unless you know they're like family or or something, I don't know. I'm not sure.

Makayla Wheeler 48:32

Yeah, no, uh well, that's why I like never trusted, I never went that route because I was like, I just haven't met someone that I would trust sharing a business with. But I mean, when it works, it works, you know.

Vipul Bindra 48:44

Yeah, like talk about again, and and again, that's why I give examples. Go back and listen to the podcast with John Ruse. He is an incredible business partner, but they work because they have clear uh delineation between each right and what they're handling, and that they complement each other and it works great for him. He's extremely successful in a field where most people are not, they're making bank on real estate, which is like a very high volume, low margin, you know, work that you know most people get into just to start out with and quit, and they're they're killing it. And I think the only way they're able to do is by automation, you know, VAs, uh planning, you know, working together. Point is I'm not saying business partners is wrong. Obviously, I have a clear example on this channel of somebody who's done it, but I am I'm not for it. Yeah. But you're right. In an ideal world, you do what most people do, you delegate. Like as in, you start a production company, if you want to, obviously, there's nothing wrong with freelance. Uh, but I'm saying if you want to be a production company and you don't want to have business partners, you can always hire. Um, I'm talking like, you know, have an accountant, have a CPA, have a, I don't know, product producer in your team, an editor. You know, and slowly you can delegate. So even though I am very much of a control freak and I don't want to, you know, let go. I have Imagine that.

Makayla Wheeler 49:59

No, I'm just kidding.

Delegation Collaboration And Your A Team

Vipul Bindra 50:00

Can't you tell no? But but I have found it to be a limiting factor, but yeah, that's why I've had to let go. Like the best thing I did for my company, quite literally, and I've sold the story before, my profits skyrocketed was letting go of editing. I used to be so obsessed with like it's my story. Yeah, I'm gonna cut it. But editing takes so much of your time.

Makayla Wheeler 50:21

It's such a bottleneck.

Vipul Bindra 50:22

So it sh you know, not obviously I don't, it's been a long time, but like 2018 or something like that when I quit editing. I'm telling you, as soon as I said that yeah, it was a you know, it was it was crazy letting go and being like, you know, like take my footage and make it good. And you know, obviously they don't know the colors you want it or whatever. And what I'm saying is not that they're doing a bad job, but they they're not seeing, you know, you have to give your vision to someone and they may pick a different take than you would have. Point is the time that it freed is where I was able to do this extra crap that, you know, yeah, taxes and receipts and other crap. Yeah, and that helped me, you know, do the business side of it while not letting go of creative. But I did have to, like I said, let go of editing and you know, color grading and sound design and all of that stuff. And that freed a lot of time because that's what I find majority of filmmakers end up doing. You're spending so much time, you know, in front of a computer that you are not spending time out there meeting people, networking, and stuff like that. So that at least what helped my production company was just taking that one arm and uh and letting go. And uh and then the other was slowly then offloading, you know, client stuff and point it's just delegating. Oh yeah. And and I think it helps without fully like, you know, being like, oh, you own a portion of my business. And yeah.

Makayla Wheeler 51:39

I think you know, one thing, because the freelance, you know, everything comes at a trade-off, you know, and so like with freelance, you really have to figure out like, is that lifestyle gonna work for you? The instability of it, right? Because you do have a lot of flexibility in your time and your autonomy, but there is instability that comes with that. Um but and and that's a real thing. And I think there's a lot of different people that, you know, get around that in a lot of different ways. And I think now, you know, we're blessed to live in a culture where, you know, it's not just freelance or get a nine to five. I think there's a lot of in-betweens. And I know several like friends of mine um who, you know, do contract work hourly more as a consulting or a creative director position, and then they do their freelance um, you know, projects and it's flexible, which I think is really cool. It's kind of the best of both worlds. Um but, you know, kind of going back to what you said with delegating, um I think, you know, obviously this is something I've had to remind myself and why I kind of, you know, when I was kind of transitioning a little bit last year and trying to meet more people, like I was just, you know, getting on set and doing different things, like definitely be open to, you know, when you're just trying to figure things out and start and make a transition, whatever. Be open to like, you know, just getting on set, different opportunities, all the things. But then eventually you really want to find your zone of genius. Um, I'm reading this book called The Big Leap. I don't know if you've heard of it before. But it's by Gay Hendricks. Okay, I think he's a psychologist, but it's all about like finding your zone of genius and um kind of like being able to tolerate almost more success in your life, kind of like we kind of upper limit ourselves. And so it's a very interesting book, but I think um just as you go through experiences on set and in production life, being able to kind of have that in the back of your mind of like, what am I really good at? What am I really passionate about? And try and like, you know, hone that a bit.

Vipul Bindra 53:53

And I also think ask somebody else that knows you well, because I I a lot of people have this issue where they'll think, like, you know, I I've met some people who are like, I want to be, I don't know, a cinematographer or whatever, and like they're so obsessed because that's what they believe in. But sometimes sometimes it takes an outside perspective too. Somebody who's worked with you a lot because they see you on set and then they can kind of guide you. What I'm saying is like sometimes you can so focus on what you want to be, and there's nothing wrong with that, but you could realize, oh, you're a great, I don't know, grip on set or whatever. And then they are like, I'm constantly hiring you for that. And by just pivoting a little bit, you can, you know, uh uh uh make it to uh you know a higher place than you could have otherwise because you would have been stuck in a uh you know place where you weren't good at the thought you thought what is what I'm saying is yeah, reach out to people closest to you, reach out to also look at data points, you know, like who's hiring you? What role are are you hiring, being hired for over and over again? Because that will kind of also guide you uh to, like you said, what you're good at, where you want to be, and and you know, find a path because literally the most easiest way to be successful here is to just not quit. And most people quit. Very true. So if you can just keep going, and the best way to keep going is to keep getting work, and the best way to keep getting work is to see what people will hire you for, yeah. Like you said, in the beginning, you go, I do a little bit of everything, right? And slowly you start to notice hey, people are hiring me for ABC, whatever that may be. Yeah, and then you know, you hone in your skills, you get better. And obviously, I totally get if you're just not into at all that, then you know, then it's fine, but then you have to put in extra effort to get better at stuff, exactly, right? That you want to be. But ultimately, I'm saying this is not the easiest way to make money, but it's also not the hardest way to make money. I think people just get too deep into either gear or the technical or the creative. I'm just saying, find the right balance and and and I think it's a good career, right? I mean, look at you here. You're here, even after a transition, right? You decide to make a transition and it seems to seem to be worked out for you.

Makayla Wheeler 55:52

Yeah, yeah. No, it's been a really great year so far. And um, I think too, just like in this industry, like being flexible and adaptable and like having your ears open to like what's shifting, I think is is really like you get if you get too focused on like, well, I'm doing this, or like you gotta be able to pivot, you know, and be flexible and adaptable. I think goes a long way in this career.

Vipul Bindra 56:23

Especially uh, because for example, I had you on a what is it, a medical conference. Uh uh stuff and so random, but that is you know, it's part of it, like where it's like, hey, you just try it, you never know you like it or not. I mean, that to be real, it wasn't hard work. We sat and hit record, and you know, it was easy. So, yeah, it's it's part of it. And and but what I'm saying is you never know what it leads to like for me. That was like the fourth project for that agency that I got of from a random phone call, right?

Makayla Wheeler 56:49

They were like, hey, yeah, no, that's right.

Vipul Bindra 56:51

We need some help. And and do you mind funny enough? I'm about to go do another project for project for them in a week. So it's like what I'm saying is you you build these partnerships slowly, yeah, and you may not even think about that's an opportunity out there. Not saying now everything is creatively fulfilling, no, because most of the time we were sitting there hitting a cord. You know what I mean? It's not the but at the end of the day, look, you know, it pays the bills. Yeah, you know, and and and and it wasn't that bad, in my opinion. You know, you're you're out there with friends having fun. It was what, four or five of us, I don't remember.

Makayla Wheeler 57:22

Yeah, well, I think it I think in those situations, and this is why I I kind of wanted to do like I did want to do more freelance, is like I think in those situations it really becomes about like who you're working with, right? And like having fun. And I think collaboration is such a big part of this um career that like you know, if you're trying to be a solo, I think that was one of my bigger problems, like in the early years, is like trying, I was so like kind of like you, like I it's mine, I want to like do everything. And like and I think um I was just so protective and just like in my own little bubble. And I think that's been one of the things I've learned over the past couple years is like it really is so helpful to collaborate as much as you can with other people in the field. And that's what one of the reasons I think I wanted to do more freelance is to give me that opportunity.

Vipul Bindra 58:14

Yeah, because you're on set with different people, you see their style, you see how they're different, or you can bounce ideas with people. And at the end of the day, filmmaking is a collaborative art form. If you're just a uh a videographer, single and and again, nothing wrong with that. If that's what you do, you know, you're one person army, shout out to you. But ultimately, to me, the rewarding aspect is the collaboration of it. You know, it is is it hard? Yes, because I'm a cinematic and again, I have an obsessive personality. Everyone who's probably watched me knows, but that is what makes me great, sure. But sometimes you have to let go. Like hiring a DP is really hard for me because you know what I mean? Like when I saw show on set, I know the camera, the lens, the focus, everything. So it's hard when I'm directing and I have got a DP because now I have to let go, you know, and it can be tough. I totally get that. But at the end of the day, I can't do both roles, especially on a bigger project. And and that would actually harm the project more by me not letting go of that makes sense. So that's just you know, like I said, art form, you know, collaborate. That's why you meet so many people, you find people, you know, who gel who you gel with. Yeah. And then you end up um, I don't know, uh, you know, just collaborating with. And at the end they they hire you, you hire them, and I think everyone wins. Um, and that's at least the attitude I go with. Nobody's competition, everyone's a friend. And if I find they're not collaborative, just don't hire them again. I don't go with it.

Makayla Wheeler 59:36

Well, it's funny because like in my early days, you know, I was really young, like I'm 28 now, but I was really young getting like, you know, grew up doing this kind of like from a very young age. And so, like, I think my mentality, like in the early days, was like, you know, if I met another videographer, I was just like, their competition. Like, I I just saw it in this very unique sense and was like, I don't like their work, like it's whatever. And that's been like a real, I think through just a bunch of different experiences over the past couple of years, a real growing process for me that now like I have some like I feel like most of the people I network with now are like your peers. You know, I think sometimes we get so focused on like, you know, running this race with clients that you don't realize like that DP that you know or the AC, like this AC that I I worked with. I'm so sad he's moved, I think he's moved to California now. He was moving. Um, yeah, we passed work back and forth, you know, like you just like people that maybe even are in your same role or adjacent to it can be like your greatest allies in this. Yeah. And you never know.

Vipul Bindra 1:00:45

Like the amount of calls I get for weddings is so stupid. And I don't do obviously weddings, I never have. But I'm saying that's where it helps because uh I literally pass it off to like, like you said, uh, how many times I've just sent and people don't even know. I I'm not even for creating credit. Like, I'll get a call and I'm like, hey, here's my buddy Dalton who does weddings or whatever. And I'm sending uh, you know, them to my friends because at the end of the day, look, I'd rather them go to my friends and people I know in my network than just random people where I know they'll get a good product and somebody I know is making more money. It's come back to me tenfold. Look, yeah, whatever you believe in at the end of it, I believe in being kind and nice, and I think it just comes back, whether directly or indirectly. It doesn't always have to be like, oh, you sent them work to send you work. Yeah, sometimes it could just be uh I don't know.

Makayla Wheeler 1:01:30

You can help them out. Yeah, no, you're in the place to do that, or maybe they're they're in the place to do that for you.

Vipul Bindra 1:01:36

And you know, for example, like I technically I know a lot of people think I rent a lot of gear. I actually hate renting gear, but uh you know, what uh to give you an example, one of my best collaborations that I have is is with a friend of mine, and I met him because I just rented him some gear. We were strangers, and you know, and here I I just started talking, and you know, it's like hey, and and you know, you eventually talk, and then you talk again, and then now you know I'm making hundred grand a year just from this one guy. You know what I mean? Like it's nuts that came from a cheap old rental. Now, to be real, don't expect you meet random people that give you that much money. It came from years and years of building that relationship, you know what I mean? Yeah, and now we're you know good friends. So, and actually, funny enough, now they remember Christopher. If you remember the project, I met him through a rental and he's hired me since then now, which is so crazy. Yeah, that's because I met him because he came rent renting some stuff for me. Um, and you know, and he I've had him on the podcast to go listen to that episode. But point is we got to talking, and then like I said, I ended up hiring him, you were there, and then now recently he hired me on a project. So what I'm saying, it came full circle. It didn't come from the intention of that, oh, you hire me, I'll hire you. It just happens, you know. You get to know somebody uh and you know, eventually see, oh, this is the right person. Now, is does that mean Christopher is hiring me on every project? No. Am I hiring him on every project? No, but you do that thousand times. I'm saying you have work every single day and you're, you know, you're doing really well off. So I think it's more about uh not being greedy, but also being, you know, like you said, giving. I think it just yeah, uh maybe I'm not saying the right way, but point is stop being uh, you know, uh like a you know, the leech attitude, like you would just have to take, take, take, just be nice, be kind, and I think pay it, pay it forward, right? Yeah, and I think it just comes back because people are nice, people want to work with nice people. Yeah, because believe it or not, a lot of times I'll hire people that may not even be the best at their job because they're good to have on set. And last thing I want is friction. I don't want to show up on set and be like, I need this done, and then them giving me attitude, yeah, or or whatever. Like I don't need that, and and it's it's it's and I'm sure it's not just me, it's everyone.

Makayla Wheeler 1:03:42

Oh yeah. Why do you think, yeah, I mean, everyone has their A-team, right? Exactly. And and like I said, it's a real thing in production, yeah, and it changes.

Vipul Bindra 1:03:49

And and I'm being real with you, sometimes I know it's a limitation. Like if I'm doing uh an automotive project, the DP has to have done automotive work, which is stupid, but that's just how it is, or medical, then they have to have done medical. So sometimes you are limited by you know the project you're doing. But what I'm trying to say is like, you know, just people hire the people they like, not the best people. So stop trying to be obviously be good at your craft, but I'm saying that's not necessarily the only thing that will get you hired, at least in my experience. Yeah, people hire me because they hired me. I stopped making a reel like eight years ago or something like that, because nobody gave a crap, is what I'm saying. The people who want you real are strangers, and I don't get hired by strangers, I get hired by warm leads, like you know, you recommending me to someone or somebody who already knows me or my worker. So you don't really I'm saying I know people do reels, there's nothing uh wrong against it, and and obviously that's a common thing, but what I'm saying is nobody who hires me cares about my real well.

Makayla Wheeler 1:04:45

I think it's definitely a must in the freelance world.

Vipul Bindra 1:04:48

You say that I have enough freelance work, and I don't know how to do it. I know, but you do market yourself more as a production code, but that's I haven't you know, but I'm doing more freelance work than most as part-time freelancer, I would say, than most people's full-time freelance work. And I'm saying I don't advertise myself that way. It just happens that you know you're on set with people, they notice what you do. I'm saying, and then they want you to be part of their project. And I'm not saying I'm the type of guy you hire for every project because I try to be at least on that mid to upper tier. And you know, if you're just doing small level stuff, I get it. But what I'm trying to say is I have personally, and I'm saying my technique works for everyone, which is why you're here to give your perspective so they can hear from I'm saying different perspectives. But for me, I have never advertised myself, I don't barely post, which we're trying to change. I know I've been saying that for three seasons, but I don't post, I don't share, I don't literally do nothing, no marketing per se. Yeah, and I can I have work, is what I'm saying. And so I'm saying it's just literally my technique is no technique. I go out and set and I try to give it my best. If I can't give it my best, I don't go and I send someone else, or I just don't take the project. And it's worked for me so well because I guess when you go on. That you meet incredible people. Like I said, I went on set recently with Adam and I met Ryan there. I don't know if he's listening, but I, you know, I'd heard about the guy. I'd met him once, but but I'm saying I had such a great time. Now, next time I'm saying I'm gonna go on a project, I'm gonna think of him to bring on as a grip or whatever. Point is, I'm saying that's at least how I network is go on different sets, meet different people, and that's where you build friendships, you know. So it's more than just working with people. Like I said, that's how I met you. And then we ended up collaborating. And now I know you're saying you don't just do water stuff, but if somebody ever asks, you're the first person that comes to mind, right? No, true. That wouldn't have happened had I just, you know, said hello on set and moved on. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, for sure. Brought some work for you. Now, hopefully, you know, you know, I can recommend you to other people and stuff like that. And like I said, not saying that will make any difference, but it may, you know, and you do that so many times, and you know,

Being A Woman Behind The Camera

Vipul Bindra 1:06:53

it works. Now, uh, I know it's a topic I hate, but like we should touch on it. Like, why are there's not so many females in this industry? And do you find it like has it like helped you or held you back, or what would you have to say about that?

Makayla Wheeler 1:07:05

Like, you know, yeah. Why why do you think I don't know you have a perspective as a yeah, no, I'm trying to figure out what you're what angle to take.

Vipul Bindra 1:07:16

I don't know, you tell me. What I'm saying is it's not I don't personally, and this is just me, I don't go when I hire people, I want to hire the best person for the job. I don't give a crap what their gender is. And don't get into that. Point is I'm hiring the best person. That's it. Move on. Like, you know, so but to be real, my roster is mostly men, and that's just how it is. Women tend to be, and and the people that I know in filmmaking are, you know, like I said, in in their producers and you know, makeup artists. And so not saying that we don't have females in this industry, but like there's not that many female cinematographers, camera operators, grips, and and and you know, stuff like that. Directors, yeah, directors. So uh why is that and what has your experience been as a female in the industry?

Makayla Wheeler 1:08:03

Yeah, I mean, I you know, I am like a huge proponent, proponent of like, you know, the girls sticking up for the girls and and um that's how we get clicks.

Vipul Bindra 1:08:16

Okay.

Makayla Wheeler 1:08:17

No, I'm very passionate about it. I I really don't have an answer for why um uh there aren't more women. I I think that that's changing because I've I you know know female DPs. Um after this, I'm actually having coffee with uh young female AC, you know. So I I can't I I think it's just the film industry in general was like a guy's industry, and I think um, you know, that is still just kind of changing and it's kind of slow to catch up. So I don't really have like a solid answer on why. Um but I do think that that's really changing. I see, you know, I know other female deeps who are awesome, I see them on social media, so that's really inspiring. But as far as my experience, I mean, I definitely think certain experiences that I've had where um yeah, it's you're treated differently and disrespected a little bit, um, you know, in a way that I don't think like a male counterpart would be.

Vipul Bindra 1:09:32

Oh my goodness. What's happened to you? Tell us. Do you have got any?

Makayla Wheeler 1:09:36

I mean, I don't I don't want to like you don't have to tell us names.

Vipul Bindra 1:09:40

I don't know.

Makayla Wheeler 1:09:41

No, no. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to get too specific, but there was one story where um it was this eco doc we were shooting um over in on the Space Coast, and uh the director was a female director actually, but her and the producer were not there because we were shooting we were shooting this particular phenomena in the river that like only happens like you just have to get there and like you know, so they they hired like crew from Orlando and then they hired me to come out and um just the director had kind of given me a specific role and she wanted me to shoot as well, and it seemed like the DP, so they had hired a a DP that was kind of operating this crane on the boat, and then I was shooting stuff with my camera.

Vipul Bindra 1:10:36

Where are you in the boat? In the boat, in the boat.

Makayla Wheeler 1:10:39

Yeah, in the boat, and um it just the certain ways that he talked to me, like as if I didn't know like basic angles and things, and I had really just said, hey, like the director wants us both to get this certain shot. It was actually a rocket launch shot. It was like a once we got one chance to get this. And I was like, look, like we need to obviously work together here so we're not in like um each other's shots. And uh so you're trying to collaborate. I'm trying to collaborate, and they basically were like, um, just so you know, like our camera is the more important camera, so like you can shoot from the back of the boat. And that was not how the director had like set this up or anything. It was just very disrespectful.

Vipul Bindra 1:11:23

And uh the director you think that was because he didn't respect you because you were a female? That's at least what you think.

Makayla Wheeler 1:11:29

I I got that vibe for sure, and um yeah, ended up talking with the director and she was very upset and was like, I'm really sorry that it happened. Like, that was not my goal, like of the whole shot. I she was kind of unhappy with the shot that they got and why they did some weird stuff that they did, and anyways. So there's been certain circumstances where I just think guys guys communicate in respect, guys understand respect and they respect each other. And I think sometimes that does not get translated over to women, they have to go above and beyond and put on this like um almost be this like boss babe, just to even like get respected or um, you know, that same respect that guys would give other guys. I just think it's like a male-female thing that um yeah, gets lost in translation a little bit.

Vipul Bindra 1:12:30

Yeah, which is unfortunate because look, at the end of the day, I feel like filmmaking is not, again, that complicated that you know you have to be male or female to be good at it. You just have to be good at it and you shouldn't have people be biased at you because you're a girl or or boy, even or whatever. I mean, so it's just unfortunate that you had to face that, but you know, I I just want us to encourage more females to get into the industry just because uh, you know, it shouldn't just be a male thing because there's nothing in it inherently male, you know what I'm saying? That you, you know, it has to be just dominated by one specific group of people. So yeah, it's it's unfortunate, but hopefully it's becoming more accessible. Yeah, you know, and um, you know, like there's more easy access. You can get gear, you can get good lights, you can get cameras, you can make content. So uh I think it's gonna hopefully get better and uh more people will get into it.

Makayla Wheeler 1:13:25

But you know, yeah, and I think to answer your question, like obviously I've had, you know, certain experiences where you just kind of get that weird vibe, you know, like you're being talked to, like you're whatever. But I will say, like, it has worked to an advantage on a lot of shoots. Like I've gotten some of my most favorite projects I feel like I've got hired for have been like, you know, we want to hire you, we love that you do this, this, and this. And it's a plus that you're a female because, you know, you're working with female athletes, or like there, I was cam-oping this project and it was like a commercial with women, you know. So I really feel like it's been like an advantage, and I'm very careful about like I don't push that angle too hard on my website because I want to be like, look, like this is what I do, this is my work.

Vipul Bindra 1:14:12

But you know, so it has a pro, they wouldn't hire males because you know they wanted a favorite I mean, hey, look, it is what it is, you know.

Makayla Wheeler 1:14:19

Like, yeah, I mean, so there's definitely been opportunities um that have come, and I I think that's just part of the beauty of being in this field and being everyone being so individual, you know, their their style, like who they are.

Vipul Bindra 1:14:33

Um and I mean I totally get you that, you know. I don't wanna totally discount what you're saying because look, at the end of the day, uh I I had this conversation, I think, on back in so season one, I think with Tony, because he was talking about, you know, like he's African-American, like, how's that which I say African American, black. Yeah, um, but you know, point is like he's getting he, you know, we we had a this conversation about is that gonna held you hold you back or what? And I had the best thing I said to him then, and you know, is look, if you have a bias or somebody's gonna be biased towards you, you can't change that, right? Whether you're, you know, you're black, white, whatever, you're a girl, whatever. Then you either just lean into it and then you move on, you know what I mean? Like if that gets you more projects, then sure. And if it doesn't get you any project, then move on, is what I'm saying. Because at the end of the day, you can't change these things. Yeah. You know, when you can't control it, then there's no point harping on it because it's not gonna do anything but bring you stress and you know, uh emotions.

Makayla Wheeler 1:15:28

So, you know, yeah. I mean, I I'm not like I don't believe in being like a victim and having like a victim mentality or being like, hire me because I'm this. That's definitely like I'm very much like believe in autonomy and like yeah, just taking control and stuff. So that's definitely not my um like philosophy at all. But you know, it has worked for and against me, you know, and I'm thankful for that because like I'm individual like an individual person, and yeah, you know, um no, and I totally get that.

Vipul Bindra 1:16:02

And look, let's me let me be real. There's a times where I haven't been able to bring, you know, females like on set just because, like, for example, the most common thing that I get like is uh corporate gigs, which are like me plus one other person, and you know, it's real good money. Uh, but a lot of times it requires, for example, like I've got a project in Boca, you know, like you're going to South Florida or Miami or whatever. So it's so easy to go with a guy be like, you know, like, hey, Mario or whoever, like, let's hop in the van at 4 a.m. We're on set at 8 a.m. Let's do 2 p.m., let's have lunch and back drive back. So, you know what I mean, like, and and again, couldn't a female do it? Yes. But I had like somebody recently like reach out to me and she was like, you know, I'd want to be on set with you. And you know, and I'm like, yes, but I don't know if it's appropriate for me to drive, you know, four hours and back. Now, could I, yes. I uh maybe I don't know what I'm saying, but like it's it's gonna people are gonna judge me. But point is, I don't know. I I'm also taking their comfort into account. I'm just like, I don't know, do they want to hang out with this four or this dude for like three hours of shoot for eight hours of driving? It's just so much easier to be able to, you know, I'm saying, just get a dude because there's none of that is ever even my brain, as in like we can go, we can get the gig done, we can come back. Plus, then I don't have to be like lift, and again, female can do that. I'm just saying it's the brain I'm talking about. What happens is you're like, oh, then we have to lift this cart up. It's like freaking hundred pounds, maybe more. Uh I mean, it looks 500 pounds, but you've seen my camera cart. Point is like, then I'm like asking the person who's helping me because they're clearly an assistant, like, take the cart out. I don't want somebody getting run over. I mean, it'd be the same thing why I'm not hiring, you know, puny guys. Couldn't they do it? Of course. I'm just like, I need I'm saying when I'm working, like especially corporate gigs, you know, there's you gotta move fast. They give you 30 minutes to set up if that, uh, or sometimes even 15 minutes, like, go. Uh what I'm saying is I need people who can just help me with what I need help with. I got the vision, I got everything. I need the cart moved. Simple as that. Like, whoever can move the cart can come. Yeah. So, point I'm trying to make is sometimes, at least I've noticed that happening on my end, where it's like I'm then I'm telling a female, like, yes, you can come on Mess Set, but it's gonna be a local set, it's gonna be BTS, you know, something like that. What I'm saying is it's not the bigger sets where I'm going to Miami or I'm going somewhere else. Or like we went to Chicago recently for Dalton's project. That was so fun with Mario to do a road trip all the way to Chicago. It's fun. But I'm just like, would a female want to be stuck with me for freaking 12-hour drive? I don't know. I wouldn't want to be. So what I'm saying is like it's a lot more of a comfort thing, but that means also you're losing opportunities and things like that. So that could, I'm sure. That's just my example.

Makayla Wheeler 1:18:33

Yeah, I mean, I think it is like I've had that, I've had other guys I know in the industry be like, yeah, who are married even too, you know.

Vipul Bindra 1:18:41

Like, um I'm sure their wives wouldn't be happy with that.

Makayla Wheeler 1:18:44

I don't I don't know. I think it's I think it's ever I think it's an individual like comfortability thing. I just I mean, uh my answer to that is like just find other girls because the girls in the film industry stick together and like have each other's backs. I think.

Vipul Bindra 1:18:59

But see, but that's when it happens. That's what I'm saying. Then you end up just having all females and all males and not necessarily.

Makayla Wheeler 1:19:05

Yeah, not necessarily, but um yeah, I don't know. I mean, like you're saying it naturally happens on your side, son, saying like then, you know, get with get with the girls, you know.

Vipul Bindra 1:19:15

And um, there's a lot of yeah, but that's the unfortunate part I'm saying of then you know, you're too stuck.

Makayla Wheeler 1:19:21

Yeah, yeah, because well, I think it goes back to what you said is like, you know, as much as you can just try and hire the best people for the job and and be open to being uncomfortable, not like in an inappropriate way or something, but just like, okay, this may not be, you know, the most what I'm used to or whatever. Yeah, exactly.

Vipul Bindra 1:19:41

No, and and like I said, it's not like we don't have females instead, but I'm saying they typically end up being makeup, art, you know, those specific roles. And I feel like women can do other roles like grip and DP and gaffing and all that. It's just that doesn't typically happen.

Makayla Wheeler 1:19:55

Um, and like I said, you have a great perspective, then girls stick to girls, and well, and I think you know, yeah, I think too like girls bring a really, you know, in more the creative artistic world.

Vipul Bindra 1:20:05

Which is why then you get stuck with the those roles. See, that's what I'm saying.

Makayla Wheeler 1:20:09

That's how No I'm saying as as DPs and directors specifically, I think they just bring, you know, I think men and women bring unique perspectives, and I think they bring a really unique emotional side when they come to DP or direct something, you know, when it comes to like a story or whatever. So I would like to see more of that, you know, more more work done like in the story realm by women, you know.

Vipul Bindra 1:20:36

Yeah, you're saying men can't tell stories?

Makayla Wheeler 1:20:39

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying I want to like it's nice to see a different perspective.

Vipul Bindra 1:20:44

Shots fired. No, I'm just kidding. No, and again, like I said, the uh the uh the point of this conversation is look, it shouldn't be about gender when you hire people and and people should work with each other. It just like I said, I was just giving an example of what happens sometimes on my set. And then I'm sure, like you said, in yours, you're like meeting, you're trying to be meeting more other females because you want to encourage that. Yeah, I get it, but then you know that's how I'm saying you have sets that are not, you know, diverse or whatever you want to call it, you know, and end up with like, I don't know, female DP and female gaffer on a set where you may have male producer. I don't know. I'm just saying it's just you know, that just doesn't work.

Makayla Wheeler 1:21:20

I think though, like, I mean, that happens anyway, like regardless of gen, like it's just who you feel comfortable with and you want to hire. Like, I think that is just that is one of the harshest realities I face in the production world, is like it can be very tight and can be hard to break into. Yeah. Because like people have those people that like they work with and they feel like they're being disloyal if they work with someone else, kind of. I think you do a good job of you know having people that you call, but then you you know are open to other people constantly coming in. But not everyone is like that.

Vipul Bindra 1:21:52

Well, I know I'm special, thank you. Thanks for us. No, and and I do get it. That's just what it is. It's a it's a click thing, and I totally know it happens with me. So sometimes, you know, I'll notice, I'll tell you one crazy story. Like, so I know this person, they've hired me, yeah, but you know, they needed someone, and they could have easily called me and saved themselves money because I could have done directly, and then they went through someone else, and I and then that person just is my friend. So they called me to do the job anyway. What I'm saying is they ended up paying a premium, but because they didn't want to call me directly, you know what I mean? I was happy to take the round about money, but I'm saying because I would have charged the same thing, right? So, point is it happens, and I noticed that, and I'm like, hmm, why did that person just not directly call? They know me. It's not like they don't know me and we haven't worked together. We have literally established, you know, W9 and all that. Yeah. But but I'm saying, like you said, people have their people, so they'd rather go through their person, even though that means getting subhired to me anyway.

Makayla Wheeler 1:22:47

Well, and that's where I think having some sort of leverage, like, you know, being a female, and then that's how you can kind of get in, is like having some sort of or or it's the underwater. Like those have been different things for me that have helped kind of break me into like more of that like older generation established crew.

Vipul Bindra 1:23:04

And I think it's also just networking thing, you know. Look, let's be real. You have to meet people first, and then and then what happens is like for me, like I'm networking on sets, so who am I meeting? Mostly men because that's who's hired, right? Yeah, and then who am I meeting who are female? Usually makeup artists and usually the producer or you know, uh, you know, art and stuff like that. So that just ends up happening because that is uh I don't know, want to call it bias, but that's just the nature of our business, and then that repeats. It's you know, it's you know, it's only going high because that's just the network that you're building. So eventually then you end up with a network where if I'm hiring a makeup artist, there's a chance the HMU is a female and the DP is a male. Yeah. Not that it should be, it's just you know, networking. And like you said, you're you're going out there, not saying that you're doing that on purpose, but I'm saying then you're meeting other females. So so your network is a certain way, other people's network is a certain way, and just happens to be that, and that's when you end up on sets that we're describing, which is the common type of set, you know. And hopefully it'll change, like I said. Not that you know, uh people are uh you know, trying to, I'm saying, make sets like that, but it is the norm and hopefully changes because I'd love to one day have a female DP on my side. I think that'd be interesting. Uh and regardless, like you said, I hope if I ever hire one, you or somebody else, they don't feel a certain way that I'm talking down to them because I I'm very particular. So if I'm a director, I'm like, I want this shot with this guy. Yeah. Then you're like, this guy was talking down to me.

Makayla Wheeler 1:24:31

Well, I just think, you know, I I watched this round table of um female DPs, like big-time DPs, like um Rachel, what's her name, that did Black Panther, and um man, there's so many of them. Uh Polly Morgan, who worked on like where the crawdads thing. It was probably like almost 10 of them, and it was this panel about um like motherhood and being a cinematographer and the stories that these women have, I mean, they are badass on set and what they've done, you know, being pregnant on set for I'm talking long set, like narrative set, you know, hours. So these women are like crazy tough what they've done. And I'm just like mad respect for that, you know.

Vipul Bindra 1:25:17

You're hardcore. Yeah, exactly. But it does take, you know, being hardcore. And and I think it just the whole industry, you don't survive filmmaking industry because, like I was saying earlier, it is not an easy industry to make money. Because if you just want to make, there's a thousand other things you can do. So I'm saying to be successful here, it does take a certain type of person.

Makayla Wheeler 1:25:37

Yeah, and true.

Vipul Bindra 1:25:38

And and if you are that, you are generally very rugged and um yeah, because you put in environments like sometimes, you know. I've been put in environments, and the next thing they're oh, by the way, yeah, be careful, somebody may shoot you. And I'm like, uh, hold on, what? Let's back up. Yeah, you know, so stuff like that. So you put in environments that are not necessarily always you can control, safe, things like that, you know, or or or just crazy stuff. I'm saying, or you're filming rockets one day, and then you're filming a doctor next day, then you're filming a lawyer next day.

Makayla Wheeler 1:26:07

Yeah, no, it does take a certain personality that likes that like risk and uncertainty and everything. Sure.

Vipul Bindra 1:26:12

That's the that's the fun part of it. To me, I enjoy it. I would get bored. Like I've said before, I could make 10x the money if I specialized in one thing because that is what's the recommended path. But I would lose my mind, you know. I at least person my personality, I have to do different things, and that's what makes this fun.

Makayla Wheeler 1:26:28

Totally.

Vipul Bindra 1:26:28

And uh, you know, but I'm sure for somebody else that may not be the the right thing. But you know, like I said, it's not a bad field to be in. Like I said, I sometimes I've been in rooms where I'm like, how did I end up

Imposter Syndrome And Dream Clients

Vipul Bindra 1:26:40

here? You know, you get that imposter syndrome that's happened to you.

Makayla Wheeler 1:26:43

Oh yeah. You have any stories about that? Yeah, I mean, I I it's such a Jekyll and Hyde life, I feel like, you know, because like the highs and lows can be really uh really, you know, distinct. But um I would say the most recent experience um growing up, like I just always loved Bethany Hamilton. Like she was a big role model of mine. She got her arm, you know, bit off by a shark, soul surfer. And I just loved her like so much through the years. And um, long story short, I almost had the opportunity like six, seven years to go to just go shoot underwater stuff for one of her retreats. Cause she does these retreats for women with traumatic limb loss. And um it just didn't work out. It was like they they didn't want to fly someone j oh all the way across the country for just half a day. There was like this husband wife team that was like I think there was some other video people that were doing the whole retreat. Well, through a crazy enough friend of a friend of a friend that I got to know, uh, he called me up like one day last year and was like, Hey, he knew Bethany and the team. And they were looking for a video person for their retreats. And uh he was like, I you came to mind, like I can't do it. I'm gonna be in Spain. So I ended up um flying out to shoot that client, and I was like, Oh my God, like I this is my dream, you know, for me. Like that was that was really, really like a pinch me moment. That was in October of last year, out to Del Mar, California. And um yeah, it was just a really like amazing full circle story over many years to get to that's amazing.

Vipul Bindra 1:28:33

Yeah, you never know, right? Where you end up, and that's incredible. So yeah, so you ended up on a set you wanted to be. And and that's what I'm saying, you never know. I've had this happen so many times where I'm like, uh, who am I filming? And then you find out some you know big shot or whatever, and I'm like, how am I on this set? You know?

Makayla Wheeler 1:28:49

Um, another set, another set, this was local in Melbourne. We were shooting um for like this jet company, and like the aerial coordinator of Top Gun was the one announcing the jets. And I was like, oh my gosh, like you know, like so cool. I don't know, it was really cool.

Vipul Bindra 1:29:09

That's pretty cool. No, that's awesome, and that's what I'm saying.

Makayla Wheeler 1:29:11

It's it's you just never know who you're gonna end up in the room.

Vipul Bindra 1:29:14

Where you end up and how you get the next gig. I've had crazy things where you do something very small, like you didn't want to, like I was talking earlier, like just giving somebody a freaking uh uh like talking about my buddy. I gave him, like I said, a microphone. Next thing I know, I'm filming Hit Boy in a studio, and I'm like in in LA, and I'm like, what? Like, this is just so random, right? Like it you never know where you end up and how you end up there, but ultimately, like I said, just about honing in your craft, meeting the right people, yeah, and uh life as a way of getting places.

How To Get Clients Without Begging

Vipul Bindra 1:29:46

So, how do you try to find clients? Because that's I think the biggest question I get, at least is like, how do I get clients? Yeah, how do you get clients?

Makayla Wheeler 1:29:54

Well, I mean, as I mentioned before, I kind of have gone less client-centric and more um strengthening relationships, you know, with other production people. Um, but I I'm not gonna lie, I mean, I think it is definitely challenging um and can be, you know, an auxiliary job to actually getting like your actual create like doing your actual creative work. But I would say the things that have worked for me is like networking with people like you say, you know. Um that has definitely, you know, you just don't know, like we talked about, like who's gonna call who. I would say too, the one of the biggest things I've found that has led to like really awesome opportunities is like following like when when there's you know, times when work is slow and there's something that you want to shoot or you're passionate about, like reach out and do it on barter to a client. Um I did that with a girl down in Palm Beach who I really loved her jewelry and she has this really awesome brand. And I was like, hey, I just want to tell your story. Like, you know, we ended up bartering, like and crazy enough, Hurley reached out to her because they wanted to use her jewelry. And then they were like, Who do you know? Like, we're we want to do a campaign here, like who's your photographer, videographer? And literally that's how like I went and shot for Hurley. So I think like just you know, shooting either barter work, spec work, passion work, definitely in your off time just leads to opportunities that you wouldn't think about. Um what else? Just be really relentless about you know, connecting with people one-on-one. Like let them like get in front of them, you know, like hey, can I go out to coffee with you and and just chat? And you know, it's not a high pressure thing, it's more just like, you know, this real this career is just so much about like being a people person and relationships, honestly. If you like don't go into it trying to be like, can I can you hire me? Like, can I yeah, you know, I don't know.

Vipul Bindra 1:32:10

No, that's smart, and and I love that you know, you're essentially saying what I've been saying, and you know, harping. I hope people are not tired of me saying that, but that's the tr the reality of it. Look, it's it's about you know, people hiring people, which is I mean, to be real, it's a universal thing, it's not just filmmaking, but at the end of the day, look, will there be jobs where somebody looks at you real and goes, yep, that's the person. Totally, yes, absolutely. I had to hire a photographer recently. I literally compiled a list, gave it to my client, she picked one, and we moved on. That happens, totally get it. But that's rare. Usually I have full freedom who I'm gonna hire, and generally, I'm hiring based on either a requirement, which is like I said, they've had to have relevant experience, which can be stupid because I may have somebody I want to hire, but they don't have that specific experience, which is how you get pigeonholed into one thing. But usually, like I'm saying, or you're hiring somebody who you're like, hey, they're gonna be on set, they're gonna do what I want them to do, and we're gonna make something epic and it'll be fun at the same time. So that only can be built because they know you. This cannot happen uh, you know, unless you're on set. Like I was talking about literally Ryan, and this is just because it's relevant to me. I just did that. I met him at a networking event, but you know, it's kind of like, hey, hello, and you know, you move on until now I was on set, and that's only because Adam has hired him. So Adam wanted to bring him because he was like, Hey, who's gonna be your grip? And I already had five recommendations like no, I've got my buddy, you know, Ryan. I was like, Oh, I know him as long as you think he's good. And he was like, Yep, of course he's good. I'm like, sure, because it's not my job. And Adam's good producer, he knows what he's hiring. But point is, and as soon as I started working with Ryan, I was like, Oh, this guy's great. I gotta bring him on my set. You know what I mean? Like that couldn't have happened unless we were on set together. And and that had to just happen how it happened. Point I'm trying to make is be out there and like right, you meet people, and that's just a huge part of it.

Makayla Wheeler 1:34:00

Well, I think too, you know, so many filmmakers are kind of a little more introverted, you know, and and I see that a lot. They don't like putting themselves out there in networking events or like reaching out to people, but I think like, you know, that is so much of what this business is is putting yourself out there and finding good networking events for me has been huge. I mean, that's how I met Fernando is through like if you have an AAF chapter in your um, you know, state or like city American Advertising Federation, that's a great way to get to know agencies, production companies, freelancers. Um, women in film and TV is another one. They're a little more maybe on the narrative side. Um I just went to an event down south, actually, that was the underwater or the South Florida Underwater Photography Society. Like just I it it is much I feel like it's getting harder in today's generation to find those networking events. And I think that's actually a huge gap in our industry is like finding networking groups that like creatives can network. I think this path can be very lonely and very like a you're a lone wolf kind of thing. And I think that's really needed face to face, not texting groups and virtual groups and whatever. Um, but I think just be really relentless about that, you know?

Vipul Bindra 1:35:21

Which is shout out again, Marfield meetups. That's uh something really I'm a fan of what he started because that's how I met so many people I hired. And you know, it just happened from a simple coffee thing, right? Like you said, and then now he hosts these all over the country. And they're such a good place, like you said, to meet people. Because same thing, shout out uh like I get how many emails of people like, can you hire me? And it just they get lost because it's like I I'm not gonna hire a random person, but I only have so many opportunities. So it's like, but versus when you meet them in person, it's a completely different thing. 100%. But it is an effort, you know, like introverts, like uh, you know, me, like I don't, you know, and and it's so crazy because all the people in the film thing, I'm I'm an extrovert, but that's because that's our lingo, right? Yeah, versus normally I'm like, I don't want to meet people, I just want to go do my thing. Yeah, I hate going to business, and and this is so crazy because I'm a member of chambers and I I I recommend people join their local chamber and other organizations. Because as somebody who serves businesses, I want to meet other businesses. Well, yeah. But it's so awkward sometimes, you know. I have to like push myself, being real, like with you guys. Like, I it's it's really hard to just go, oh, go out there. And then I don't like talking about my personal life with random people, but you know, most people that's how they connect, they want to talk about their their wives and husbands and children and all this stuff. So it's like, yeah, and I'm passionate about filmmaking, so I don't want to go talk to random people about my family and my life, yeah. But you but you have to, and that's where I'm saying it's been a struggle for me, but it's helped me tremendously in my business is going to these events and just breaking out of my shelf. Yeah, like being a few.

Makayla Wheeler 1:36:49

You have to just like be comfortable with being uncomfortable, exactly.

Vipul Bindra 1:36:53

And and it's it's tough, and I totally get it. Look, as an introvert, a lot of these events I go to, and I'm just like, what the f what the F I'm doing here, right? Like, why am I here? But here's the flip side of it. You know, if you do get over that uncomfortable thing, you meet these people. I now have so many relationships with so many great people from so many various industries, and they may not always turn into your um uh clients do. I want to be realistic. You because some people, you know, will join the chamber, go like Bindra said, join the chamber, and then nothing came of it. But let me just it's indirect because sometimes I meet people that have become not great friends. So uh, you know, you go, you meet them, and then they somebody may ask them, like, hey, I need a video person or photo person, and they can recommend you. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Makayla Wheeler 1:37:34

Sometimes it isn't them, it's like four or five or you know, one connection or two connections deep from them.

Vipul Bindra 1:37:41

Exactly. So you never know, like I said, so where you get so point is you're right. That is the only way my business has been successful is by going out there, meeting people, building these relationships, and not just with filmmakers. Obviously, if you're a freelancer, then it's easy to meet other filmmakers and agencies. But I'm saying as a production company, you have to meet other businesses. Otherwise, how are you getting your business?

Makayla Wheeler 1:38:03

Yeah, I I I think though, like just in my journey specifically, like it was harder for me to directly kind of meet clients because it feels more like high, I don't know, like you're selling them. Like, do you need video? Like not that that's not what I would do, but you're kind of like, whereas when you network with people like in the film industry, you're kind of just like hanging out, it's much like lower pressure, and then stuff ends up happening, like but also it's funny, like when I meet people, they think you know, when I say video, so a lot of people are like, What

Gear Signals Versus Lighting Skill

Makayla Wheeler 1:38:36

do you do? and I feel like I'm like pitching them or something.

Vipul Bindra 1:38:38

No, but also I'm like video, so they think it's like this, this is what I do, and like their entire idea of what I do is like this or just a tiny camera. So it's funny. I've had people hire me and uh, you know, like I meet them, and eventually they're like, Hey, we'll do a video for our business. And it's so funny, like my bare minimum is like they've never seen anything like that. So I show up, like I said, and my bare minimum is my camera card. Obviously, it goes way, way beyond that. Yeah, uh, go see you know some of the videos I put out on my channel. But point is my bare minimum is you're like, hey, DP, couple of camera interviews. That's why I designed my card. I'll do an updated video if it hasn't been posted by this post. But uh, point is it's literally designed to go quickly make two camera interviews, b-roll, and get out of there. Like, I am all about efficiency. Uh like I'm talking seconds here. Yes. Um but point is, and that's because I do hundreds of these. I want it to be, you know, efficient and get on set. Like you said, I want tools to get, even though I'm a gearhead, I want the gear to get out of the way. That's why I'm efficient, not because I want to play with gear. I want gear as just a tool. Point is, but what I'm saying is like these people hire me. So all we've sold is, hey, yeah, you're gonna come make a video of my business. And when I show up a set and they go, This is like a movie. And I'm like, I I didn't even take out a single extra thing from my van. This is like my bare minimum. But like you said, because in their idea, their brain was, you know, I'm gonna show up with this or a tiny camera, and you know, you shoot a load, and then they make it. And and that's been actually helped me a lot get business because as soon as it's like looking like professional, not looking, but just actually doing good work.

Makayla Wheeler 1:40:09

Because I feel like but do you but do you feel like there's a difference, I will say, between doing good work and then just like having all the bells and whistles that looks like official. No, but see, that's because I'm very minimalist in my so glad you bring that up.

Vipul Bindra 1:40:24

I'll tell you that that is a good perspective. People think, like, oh, this is too much. But here's the thing.

Makayla Wheeler 1:40:29

Because people are like, just throw a mat box, it'll be more official.

Vipul Bindra 1:40:32

But it does work.

Makayla Wheeler 1:40:33

I mean, but but let's be real. Maybe that's the moral of the story here. Get more work, throw a mat box.

Vipul Bindra 1:40:40

No, but but think, and that's you you're bringing actually a very realistic point that people bring. The thing is, I'm not doing it for the client. I'm telling you, if I'm doing it for the client, I have big frames. I'm saying if I want to show off, I'm gonna put 12 buys, eight bys, freaking no Nova 2s. I am talking like that is my showing off. If I'm putting two socklers and two FX6s, that's not me trying to show off. That's literally my bare minimum, I'm saying. And that's I use because I am again, talk about efficiency. I want matching cameras because I don't want my post to have to match two different cameras. Because even though yes, FX3 and FX6 look similar, but they are slightly different. There's more of, you know, there's different LUTs, and you have to do a little more extra work. Point I'm trying to make is my work is based on literal efficiency. I have 50 millimeter, 85 millimeter lenses on it because that's what I want for my interviews. That happened after years of you know figuring out what focal lens looks the best. Yeah. Point I'm trying to make is my system is designed, like I said, go watch the camera cart video if you want to know what I'm talking about. I'm doing it for my ease. I want to so show up. I didn't want to open bags. I I'm too lazy to open a bag. And this is what I'm saying. My efficiency comes from my laziness. I think is I want to show and set, lift a tripod. I use sock letters not because they're expensive, but because in one second I can open the set the tripod. And in two seconds I can put my camera on. They're in quick releases because it's quick, not because it's showing off. I have a mat box because I'm running HBMs. Shout out to HBM filter, not because it looks cool. Now it happens to look cool, it happens to be. But but what I'm saying is I can, in my opinion, I can show up in a set and I have two camera ready-to-go corporate interview in 15 minutes. Yeah. That looks better than by the time you take the bag out, you unzip, you take your tripod out. I'm saying you build your camera rig, you set your VM out, mine's ready to go. So it came from, at least my perspective. I don't, I'm not saying that none of this has a play. Point is, I do what gets me the job done and done how I want it to do. Now, and and I'm also obsessed, I want to look at both cameras. I I'm human, I can't look at two cameras. I'm interviewing, which is why I have a director's monitor, and then I have a production monitor, because I don't want somebody on my shoulder. Again, I'm an introvert, I want my bubble, so I don't want people right next to me, which caught me to get a production monitor. But what I'm saying is, but now I show up, all this is literally for my efficiency's sake. Yeah, it does look cool. When you have a whole lighting console, you have two cameras, you have big lights, you have all this, you have a mat box on, your stock goes up. And but coming to my frame, I'm just doing this for me, and it happens to look cool.

Makayla Wheeler 1:43:13

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra 1:43:14

And that means the BTS photos for the client will look good because I guess I'm barely doing any BTS. And that means that their friends and their recommendation will see it and I get more business, then why not? Then you should do it. Ultimately, if that is more business, I'm not saying it is. If that is, then why not do it?

Makayla Wheeler 1:43:31

Yeah, I mean, it's it's a good question because I know for me, like I probably more the nature of what I shoot is more like very out in the field, uncontrolled environments. That's kind of more my background. So, like all the stuff is like it can sl on the reverse side, it slows me down. You know, no, I totally get it. If I'm on a water I'm just a very different, like my background's very different and stuff. So I think the question becomes like, okay, well, if you have a certain process, you know, that's very minimalistic depending on the client. Do you put on all these bells and whistles just to show off, or do you do you?

Vipul Bindra 1:44:08

Yeah. I mean, that's what I'm saying. You should do you, and that is me. But you're right. Like, if I'm doing an event work, which I try not to personally shoot at, I hire people. Yeah. But yeah, event work is generally a camera on a gimbal. That's all it is. You know what I mean? And you're moving that. So I may have two, three people now. Yeah. That may be my style instead of one, have three people, but at the end, it's just people with a gimbal and a camera. There's no lights, there's no crazy sound where you're using those tiny, you know, microphones because it's faster, not because it's the best. Yeah. And that is the right tool for the job. So ultimately, the answer to your question is use the right tool for the job. If it requires a small camera, go minimal. But also, I want to talk about so that that's the answer. But also in that way, some people I feel like are not DPs and they call themselves DP because look, being a director of photography, you know, you're a cinematographer, not a videographer, which means your control of light is the difference between a videographer and cinematographer. If you're just going out there and capturing what you see, then you're a videographer. You're not a DP. And the entire art form, and I'm not saying that means setting up lights. Just I'm saying, Yeah, no, it does.

Makayla Wheeler 1:45:13

I would disagree that it does not mean setting up lights.

Vipul Bindra 1:45:16

Exactly. That's what I'm saying. It means control of light, as in.

Makayla Wheeler 1:45:18

Or it means your, I think your IQ of light. Exactly. How to work with light and like, yeah. Yeah, it's your IQ of light. Exactly.

Vipul Bindra 1:45:27

Where the sun's gonna be, what time, you know what I'm saying, and framing, there's a lot more, but essentially a difference between a cinematographer and a videographer is your use of light. True, whether that's natural or not. And there's a lot of people out there that call themselves DPs and they have zero understanding of lighting, and that's why I tell people you don't have to be a gaffer, which is how I ended up slowly also you know being gaffing on some jobs, because as a DP, I'm like obsessed with light. I want to know anything and everything to do with light because I want my image. And nowadays, when cameras are so good, the only way to differentiate your image and my image is through lighting as a cinematography cinematographer. And and composition and like all the things, but what I'm saying is like you should focus a lot on understanding of light. And like I said, there are times when you can control, like like I said, if you hired me to be on the ocean, I'm not bringing. I mean, you're sure if I'm near the I'm saying beach, whatever, I could set up a light, but point is usually you're in the middle of water. But that doesn't mean, like you say, you you play with light, right? You're looking at sun, you're looking at time of day, framing, composition, stuff like that, and placement of character, blocking, you know what I mean? Yeah, it this is an art form, and you know, it is what makes your craft different or better than somebody else's craft, and it's the time and attention and detail you put into it.

Makayla Wheeler 1:46:41

Yeah. Right? I mean, you see. Yeah, and I mean, I think to your point too, going back to the gear thing of like being a gearhead, I I think people spend way too much time on the gear when they should be learning lighting. And and if you if you know lighting and you you know the foundations of composition and all like the stuff that even comes from photography, right? Kind of um I think that will make you a way better, like, talented person in this field than like having the latest and greatest gear. Because you can make something look really good on like a crappy camera.

Vipul Bindra 1:47:17

Yeah, which because nowadays crappy cameras are so good. So point.

Makayla Wheeler 1:47:20

I mean, not saying there's it's funny because I was like shooting this thing recently and I was like shooting some content on the iPhone for social and then shooting some content on my camera, and I was like, there's still a big difference between the iPhone and like you know, even shooting on an FX3. So I'm not I'm not gonna, you know, go that far with it.

Vipul Bindra 1:47:38

But gear does matter, but it doesn't matter as much as people think.

Makayla Wheeler 1:47:42

Exactly. That's not agreeable.

Vipul Bindra 1:47:44

And that's what I'm saying. Like and again, this is the nature of you know how you know when people see me, and that's what I'm saying. This is like the difference of like people, what I'm saying is like people who know me as a DP, they have a completely different understanding of me because I'm going there, you know, I'm do dealing with that. But if you know me from this YouTube channel, obviously you're gonna think I'm a gearhead. And that's because I uh like I said, I'm also obsessed with this. Like, I want to know everything because when I go on set, I don't want to communicate with my gaffer how most DPs normally do. You know, they're like, I want a light here. No, I like like I said, I'm a control freak, so I'm gonna be like, no, I need a panel, I need a flex, or whatever. I I'm very because I that's my work, right? Yeah, and that that gaffer is there to help me support the lighting team, you know, not a lot of people that what I'm saying has on a bigger set, they treat their gaffer like, okay, I need light, and then they just let go. And then I'm like, you're not being a DP because you're the one in charge.

Makayla Wheeler 1:48:35

No, you don't have to know at least have an idea of like Yeah, you don't have to know each light.

Vipul Bindra 1:48:40

Yeah, you don't need to be obsessed with the light.

Makayla Wheeler 1:48:42

Like, is it hard light, soft light, like how much diffusion, like yeah, it's stuff like that.

Vipul Bindra 1:48:46

You should have some basic understanding. And what I'm saying is that's your craft because at the end of the day, look, yeah, if a gaffer does a bad job, it's not them, it's you. If you are the DP, I'm saying at the end of the day, you're in charge of lighting. You don't have to know each fixture, where to place. That's where why having a team helps. And nowadays, with budgets shrinking, you have to do more. Ultimately, uh, I'm I'm sure you see more and more sets where you have to do everything. You have to set up lights, you have to set up audio, you have to do everything.

Makayla Wheeler 1:49:11

And that's or it's a small, it's like a yeah, small team. It's doing yeah, there's still multiple people, but they're like each wearing a lot of hats.

Vipul Bindra 1:49:19

Yeah, and with

The Future Is Small Mighty Crews

Vipul Bindra 1:49:20

the influx of AI, I think it's only going to get smaller. I don't see it going back to where you know you get 50 people in a set. Nowadays, even justifying to my client 20, 25 people is like takes a lot. They want to know why each person is sexy. Exactly. Recently had a job. Yeah, so they wanted, just to give you an example of a real world situation, they wanted um, you know, a role set, whatever, multi-location, but then they wanted us to be getting uh locations in the city throughout the day. How's that possible? It's not humanly possible for the team to be in two places at once. So I suggested, as the producer side of me, look, let's get a rental car, we'll get a driver, and we'll get another DP or shooter, whatever, and they'll be our B team and Go out and get this. So to justify, they were like, why do we need a B team? You know, and I was like, to justify, I'm like taking this main DP off their steady cam, taking them to all working. To whole different location, then coming back to this, this doesn't work. I'm like, you're gonna save more money and actually get the thing done on time because it'll be cheaper for the talent. So obviously they they accepted in the end. But I'm saying just to justify how spending that extra thousand, which wasn't even gonna be a lot, because you don't need top-tier DP to go get location shots. What I'm saying is the total cost wasn't even a thousand dollars. On a project at the scale of that was, it was like 30, 40 grand project. $1,000 is like, I'm saying relatively low cost. And and so to but I'm saying where I'm going with this is like now I'm having at least a hard time is when I'm producing projects, is to just justify doing the right thing. And I'm already very frugal, you know, as in like being able to do projects much smaller. Uh but like to justify that took me hours and hours of calls with the clients. And then finally, when they understood, I was like, thank goodness. Because this is not only making project better for them, it is actually helping the rest of the team. Because now this rest of this whole team can just do what they need to do. Nobody has to leave unless you know it's a company move. And and that helped so much on that project. But that wouldn't, but I'm saying justifying that took so much out of me. I was like, well, you know, but that's where I see the industry going. So what I'm saying is give it five more years, and clients may not even want that. Now they may want even half the people. So as a filmmaker, you just have to get more efficient.

Makayla Wheeler 1:51:28

Yeah, I I see the sweet spot as like I think a lot of the bigger productions are gonna, especially in commercial, kind of shrink and disappear. I I do think you're gonna have these like little, you know, micro teams kind of that still have the collaboration, you know, and and the people, maybe 15 people or less, down to, you know, three people. But you know, they're gonna be very mighty, you know, and very um like these little, yeah. I don't know, that's kind of that's kind of where I see things now. No, I totally know, and they're kind of like collabor like smaller collaborations with friends, kind of, you know, not these like big official productions where we need like payroll and like yeah, I don't know. No, exactly.

Vipul Bindra 1:52:14

And I think that is where the industry is going, and that's where I've set myself up. Uh, because I I totally agree with you because most of my money, let me be real, like I know everyone wants to be on a big set with me. I make less money the quicker the set is. You know, my sweet sweat is that like three two to three person team, uh, small projects, I'm talking 10 to 25k, where the companies aren't the biggest, they're willing to pay either agency or company. I'm saying they're easily willing to pay that. There's not a huge investment. I'm saying from a business perspective, it's a lot of money. I'm not saying 10, 15k is not a lot of money. But I'm saying on the on a business side, 10 to 20k is not a lot of money where they're willing to risk it. And you can, you can, you can do a lot. I'm saying with a team of three, uh, you know, with some, like I said, some basic cameras, lighting, stuff like I have. It goes a long way. And the advantage I have is it's way more profitable because my cost is if I own the gear, the rental company's coming, income is coming to me. Yeah, all I'm paying is a couple of friends. And uh, and I'm saying, it's I don't have to do, you know, crafty, I don't have to do makeup, I don't have to do all this. It's a lot easier producing side on me. And then it's so, and I can also do all three roles. I can be director, producer, DP, which is what my favorite thing is. And then I have two other people.

Makayla Wheeler 1:53:29

That's a lot for one person.

Vipul Bindra 1:53:30

No, but it's on a small set, it's it's easy when everything is efficient, you know, it's like so easy to deploy. And I'm saying I can bring one to two people who can help me with the lighting and sound and stuff like that. And I'm saying you can, and then they can also do camera, which is why what I tell people is like at least my advice nowadays is be versatile, just be open. Yeah, so nothing wrong with being a DP or whatever you want to do, first AC or whatever, but you should be out there, you know, shooting. You should be out there trying to learn a little bit about sound, you know, lighting, because you don't need to be perfect at it. But on a set like that, where it's just three people, being able to just be like, hey, jump in. Yeah, can you set up a light? Can you put a softbox for me? It's so much going to be easier because when everyone is hands-on, you cannot be the guy who's like, hey, I don't know how to set a light up or I don't know how to put a microphone on a client. I don't know. It's the simple things, but that is what I feel like is the future. Three to four, you know, like two to three, three, four people, max B teams, that 10 to 25k budget. And the best thing is it's profitable, unlike the big gigs. You know, I I lost money on the last car thing. I tell people like, I, and I was willing to do that because it was fun. But I'm saying buy getting a camera car isn't cheap, you know, and justifying that to clients is expensive. So sometimes I just go, eff it, I have enough budget that I'll just do it. But I'm just saying not everyone can do that. So, not that bad big jobs are bad, like you know, like I love being part of a huge team and all that, but I'm saying money-wise, it's not as much money as you may think. Sure, the check may be $400,000, but by the time you have 10 grand left, I'm like, I could have done a 20 grand job in two days and made the same money. Yeah, and it makes a lot of sense. It takes weeks and weeks to produce stuff, something like that. So I'm saying it's not financially the best thing. Yeah, so I know a lot of people want to be in bigger sets, but my aspiration is that smaller sets because there's so much more money and so easy.

Makayla Wheeler 1:55:25

And the client's and I I just enjoy smaller sets more myself, like the vibe of it. I'm not a big set girl. I don't know. It's kind of vibe gets weird.

Vipul Bindra 1:55:33

I mean, look, it what you what you enjoy, right? You're having fun. That's all it's about, you know. As long as you can make a career out of it. Look, at the end of the day, you can sustain whatever you're and I I know everyone has their different mindset of what number they want to be. I know, like say years ago, uh 100k was the number nowadays, like 100k doesn't do anything. And good luck in Florida. Oh, you're in the coast. Good luck buying a house. It's impossible now. Uh, you know, like the the shrappiest home on the on the coast are good over a million bucks, right? Even if that I'm saying you could find a shack. So I'm saying if you want to be on the water, like I'm saying, things are very, very expensive right now. So if you want to have a realistic life, you know, it it it you need money. And the only way you can have money is by doing projects that can make you money. And and you have to think value to to the other person instead of going, you know, this frame, this camera, think of what value you're bringing to them and what they're willing to pay for it, right? Because what's the point of a beautiful person?

Makayla Wheeler 1:56:33

Or how can you like solve their problems or be like a constant solution for them?

Vipul Bindra 1:56:39

Yeah, exactly. And and that is they win, you win, everyone wins. And again, if you're not enjoying it, I'm not saying do crap that you don't enjoy. But that's where what I find, like I was telling you earlier, it's like sure, there may be projects that are not the most fun, but that's where you bring friends, so at least you're having good banter, you're having a good time. And then so that can be the fun part of it. Or true, you find challenges for me. It's like different industries. So I'm like, ooh, what did they do? Like, oh, how do they make this? So it actually involves you in the process, so you're not just bored. Yeah, you know, 45 minutes.

Makayla Wheeler 1:57:09

Oh, yeah.

Vipul Bindra 1:57:10

They're talking about oncology. You know what I mean? Like, so yeah, so you're like you're actually curious, you're like, oh, this is neat. And if I did that every day, I'm sure I'd be like, not again. But you know, if you're doing this once every six months, you go, oh wow, that's really neat. You know, and it just keeps it fun. And at the end of the day, look, uh, it's just about building a successful career and being happy with it, right? And whatever path that is, here's two different things.

Makayla Wheeler 1:57:34

Sometimes it's like walking a line, you know, like you got to balance both sides of that, you know, the money and the passion for sure.

Where To Find Makayla Online

Vipul Bindra 1:57:40

Yeah, of course. So we're almost almost towards the tail end of this, uh, Makayla. Anything else you want to talk about? What have you not touched on?

Makayla Wheeler 1:57:48

Yeah, I think we've covered a lot of ground. I'm trying to think if there's anything else that comes to mind. Is there anything else you want to talk about?

Vipul Bindra 1:57:56

No, I think with you, that was my main thing. I think I I really was impressed with what you're doing. Like you said, you've started this, you know, and I kind of saw some parallels in it because like I said, I started this really young too, and I uh and like I said, there was not that many people out there who cared about now. Obviously, now it's such a cool thing to be a filmmaker.

Makayla Wheeler 1:58:12

It's very saturated, yeah, exactly.

Vipul Bindra 1:58:14

But like I I really like the parallels that I saw in you where you're like you're you know, I started young, you just wanted to create stories. You know, the rest came into it. That's why I was like joking. Like, I'm I I come like a gear guy, but ultimately I started with wanting to tell stories. I tried, you know, and making great videos, and I'm just happy that I was able to build this from that, and you know, uh, and uh and now this is going in other places. I've got a lot of cool stuff coming, can't talk about it yet, but you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it all evolved from me grabbing a camera and and trying to make videos from for video games and crap, you know, it's it's it's a crazy time. So I'm I'm I saw the parallels. I'm glad uh you found so much success.

Makayla Wheeler 1:58:56

Yeah.

Vipul Bindra 1:58:56

And uh going places. So this is pretty cool, and um, you know, and I just want people to hear from different perspectives because your journey, even though similar, is very different than what I'm doing and everyone else who's sat there before you. Yeah, for sure. Even if it clicks with one person, you know, then it could help, you know. Because I really like that thing, and and you know, that may be the last thing we touch on is what you spoke on networking side, because not that many people are doing what you're doing, looking for events, going out there, putting yourself out there, meeting people, because ultimately that is how you're gonna get work. It's not gonna be from I don't know, being on your computer or emailing, yeah. Yeah, emailing.

Makayla Wheeler 1:59:36

Yeah, that's kind of a last resort for me, especially as a cold lead.

Vipul Bindra 1:59:41

Yeah. Has anything you c come ever off a cold lead?

Makayla Wheeler 1:59:47

Probably, yeah, I would say, but it's not been, I I would say oh, another another path that actually got me one of the coolest jobs this year was the cruise shoot. Was there's these Facebook groups. Some of them are like women in women in you know, reality TV. Some are like um there's one called Where Spot, you've probably heard of that one. Um, Nat Geo Happy. There's like random Facebook groups. And um they post job postings. And uh I actually got like one of the coolest jobs off of that, like random, and it was because my work was kind of so targeted to a specific like niche. They specifically told me that it was this um cruise shoot for the New York Times um agency and Princess Cruises.

Vipul Bindra 2:00:35

So cool, and that's what I'm talking about. Look, uh you would think Facebook is dead, but it's arrived.

Makayla Wheeler 2:00:41

The groups are really hot for sure. So so yeah, find some groups if you're you know, female media mavens is a good one.

Vipul Bindra 2:00:49

And join the join the grandparents, join Facebook, you know. But hey, look, the groups work. I love the user forums for sometimes I have issues just being able to go talk to people who have that same gear, or like you said, uh fine work or just in general network. There's so much happening, and it's it it those groups are definitely a good place to hang out. And look, you got a job out of it, and I know other people who are lending actual gigs from Facebook. I agree. So it's actually really neat that you know Facebook is somehow surviving in you know, TikTok times. But yeah, look, at the end of the day, as long as you get work, it doesn't matter where it comes from. But Facebook groups, networking, just put yourself out there. Like I said, just go meet people, try to do it in person if you can. That's my thing. Putting a face to a voice agreed, agreed is so much better than an email. And it's not intentional. I also want to speak from you know both sides because I'm I'm on both sides. Look, I'm reaching out to other production companies because I'm a freelancer, but then I'm also being reached out to because I'm hiring people as a production company. And it emails will get ignored because even if I respond, I'm really I try to be on the kind side because I, you know, because I'll get sometimes like, hey, I'm new, and can you get on a call? I'll genuinely, if I have time, I'll find time. I will honestly meet with people with coffee. I will genuinely try to meet people with um, you know, or do a zoom call, somebody who's like a student or whatever. But the chance of them being on set is very minimal to low. And that's not being mean, it's just like I said, there's only so many opportunities. And when clients get involved, there's real money involved. I cannot risk somebody being silly or stupid or whatever, or not knowing. Because let me be real, it may just be as simple as you not knowing. Because like I know you don't know, for example, I'm saying a student comes on set, I know they don't know, but my client doesn't know.

Makayla Wheeler 2:02:36

So if they go, hey, they ask him something, they're like, I don't know.

Vipul Bindra 2:02:38

Yeah, yeah, it's all yeah, that, or you just tell them, hey, can you set up the stand? And they don't know, they're like, hey, I don't know, which is fine. I normally like here you go. But the client overhears you to them go, hey, I just paid them 20 grand. They don't even know how to set up a stand. You know what I mean? That makes the company and me look bad. And then it didn't even come from a point of doing something wrong. Yeah, and and so it's just like you can't risk that if that makes sense. So I've had sometimes where I brought somebody green on set, and I'm like, hey, just whisper on the headset. So I will show you anything because I know you're new, that's the whole reason you're here. Don't let the client overhear it, because even though you're not doing something wrong, I'm just saying it again, coming to your previous point, it's sometimes it is about showmanship. Yeah, that madbox is worth its goals. Not because it makes you better. We all agree here. Madbox, unless you're using filters, super official. Unless you're using filters, it has a use, but if you're not using filters, it is useless, but it does make your project worth more money. So instead, we can sit here and complain about it, or we can all go spend hundred bucks and buy a mad box. Stop complaining. And if that means more money, then why would you complain? You know what I mean? Like, I also think sometimes filmmakers get on the online, like on my YouTube, like so argumentative or whatever, like just not necessary, or you don't need 16-bit RAW, or you don't need OpenGate, or you don't need this or that, or whatever. I'm like, at the end of the day, look, the person with the money decides. Should it be that way? No. But if the person with the money says, I want ABC, now it's your job to steer them. But at the end day, if you're arguing with them, then it's your loss, not theirs, because they can go hire 10 other people. And you know, there will always be somebody cheaper. Yeah, there will always somebody be like, I'll do it for free. I will just show up. Then it's like, so yeah, them hiring you is because you're an expert and you're gonna solve their problem, not because you're gonna argue with them, you know. So I generally decide to steer them, like, hey, this is necessary or not. But I'm not gonna go there and and and be like, oh, I'm gonna take the mat box off, I'm gonna hand hold a camera or a phone because that's the easy path out. I'm gonna, you know, do the right thing, use the right tools, make the project look good, but also make them feel good about their money. And at the end, they look if they make money, they're gonna hire me again, they're gonna recommend me to their friends. Everyone wins, you go about your life. So it works. Yeah, but um, this has been an awesome, amazing conversation with you, Makayla. You're amazing on, of course, you're doing great. And I I hope people had fun just listening to it and maybe got something out of it. I don't know. Uh if you're still even here. Uh, but uh before we go, tell people where they can find you, how can they connect with you?

Makayla Wheeler 2:05:11

Yeah, so I would say LinkedIn, Makayla Wheeler or um Instagram.

Vipul Bindra 2:05:16

LinkedIn. Oh my god. Because the first one is usually if filmmakers go for Instagram, but yeah.

Makayla Wheeler 2:05:21

I know. Well, LinkedIn actually, fun fact is really hot right now. So LinkedIn or um Instagram at MGWpro. And my website is mgwpro.com.

Vipul Bindra 2:05:30

So you didn't change it even though you went freelance, you kept the same information?

Makayla Wheeler 2:05:33

I just kept it, yeah.

Vipul Bindra 2:05:34

Okay, perfect. All right. Well, go follow her wherever you know people follow. But thank you for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.